For the MT owners: how do you downshift?

[Horse]

Videos?

Gary Sheehan, double-clutch & heel-toe
[ame]

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[Charles147]

Gary Sheehan, double-clutch & heel-toe

Again, I should have been more specific. Don't care about double clutching/heel toeing in a racecar. I want to see all this talk demonstrated on a 15.

 

[Braski]

Stop looking at the rpm's and go by the sound of the engine. This will require a aftermarket exhaust since the factory one is way to quiet. I take pride on being able to play her like a musical instrument.

 

[mikeyjobu]

Mine is not a Perf. Pack. car, but the first couple of days, as I got used to driving a manual again, I did this without thinking. Going from 6th to 4th did have a brake effect, and it lurched like nobody's business, too. The transmission did NOT like that.

I could not imagine doing that every day. You'd throw passengers around in the car and I cannot imagine it being good for the long-term health of the transmission. That's when I was reminded of proper rev matching.

I don't do this double clutch business. All I do is hit the clutch, tap the gas a hair until I see the RPMs roughly around where I think they ought to be for the downshift in question (it's just some quick math in my head) and let the clutch out. Usually I'm within a 100-200 RPMs of where I need to be, and it's pretty smooth. I mean, most downshifting I do is when I'm going to gun it on the freeway, anyway. The rest is just for approximating a slow corner on the street or dealing with city traffic, and that I can do with clutch slip.

Every once in awhile I'll f*ck it up and lurch it a bit, but not as bad as if I didn't blip the throttle at all.

The lurching you describe sounds more likely to be induced by how you're engaging the clutch than a rev mismatch - but if you want to blip the throttle to get closer in RPM, I'd say go for it if you find it fun - I doubt you're saving much wear on the clutch in so doing, but it's all good. Once you know the road or course, you can select the correct gear to accelerate out of a turn just as you'll be back on the throttle - granted, not every turn will work that way...

 

[Socalmustang]

Again, I should have been more specific. Don't care about double clutching/heel toeing in a racecar. I want to see all this talk demonstrated on a 15.

I agree, I want to see someone make a video of perfectly driving this manual transmission...There has been a lot of talk on this debate.

Let's see some people do some walking and make a video.

So who's willing to step-up?

 

[mikeyjobu]

I'd be interested in seeing something too -- no video equipment here -- and I don't claim to be the driver to do it either. I still feel a little like I'm learning to drive all over again -- only about 1100 miles on the car. I've looked for some spots to test the car and just do some 0-60 runs to test TrackApps, but the road surface is so-so at best, there's lots of gravel, etc. -- I've only felt comfortable doing about two pulls before driving off -- I don't need the attention. I may practice heel-toeing uphill somewhere so I don't need to be paying attention to braking -- I'm just not sold that there is any value add with this car. There are times when the front and rear don't agree with one another, and I think stability, traction control, and ABS get easily confused -- even more so when you chase to correct the cars natural tendencies -- kind of like if you counter steer, or do anything mid corner to correct the system kind of freaks out like "hey buddy -- what are you doing!?! I'VE GOT THIS!"

 

[fionic]

I'm just not sold that there is any value add with this car.

huh?

 

[mikeyjobu]

huh?

I'm not sure there's value add to rev matching the downshifts with this car versus just downshifting -- the car seems to handle it just fine so long as you're not too abrupt with the clutch.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Again, I should have been more specific. Don't care about double clutching/heel toeing in a racecar. I want to see all this talk demonstrated on a 15.

Double clutching and heel-toe'ing are two slightly different things and are not interchangeable terms for the same thing. The first does not necessarily involve the brake pedal, the second always involves braking.

Double-clutching is done the same way regardless of the specific car, but heel-toe may differ in detail depending on how the brake and throttle pedals sit relative to each other.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

I'm not sure there's value add to rev matching the downshifts with this car versus just downshifting -- the car seems to handle it just fine so long as you're not too abrupt with the clutch.

Not rev matching and not being too abrupt with the clutch absolutely means that you're slipping the clutch at least a little (and needlessly). Have to be . . .


Norm

 

[mikeyjobu]

Not rev matching and not being too abrupt with the clutch absolutely means that you're slipping the clutch at least a little (and needlessly). Have to be . . .


Norm

I don't disagree -- I just think that unless the clutch is a total POS, not up to handling the power of the car it's in, it should be fine slipping it some -- the gears are pretty close, especially with the Performance Pack, and it's a synchromesh, not a dog box -- so it's a little bit more forgiving than people would make it out to be for daily driving duties. I'm not going to disagree that entering a tight corner, there might be some added value heel-toeing it -- especially if you're going around a course and doing it repeatedly, but few conditions exist on public roads where it would matter. Slowing down in traffic, lifting in 6 to go to 5, there's not much point -- and the gap between 5 and 6 seems like the biggest one. If the track heros of the forum disagree, and advocate a heel toe for every decelerating downshift, so be it. I don't expect the clutch of the mustang to be as durable as the one in my civic -- I have almost 156k on the original clutch, beating on it relentlessly for almost 16 years, not rev-matching, etc. -- and the gearbox and clutch are still working fine. Yes, it's showing it's age, but I expect that. I doubt I'll get more than 100k on the Mustang's clutch, irrespective of how I rev match, or don't.

 

[Horse]

We all have our own ways of doing things, like how to shift a car. As long we are aware of what we are doing (advantages vs disadvantages), we should be happy/respectful with each other.

I personally like to double clutch rev-match and heel-toe (as long as the situation allows, e.g., not in an emergency situation where I am not mentally prepared/ready to heel-toe). You can call me a perfectionist (I know I am not), but I take satisfaction/pride in making all the turning part inside the car in synch (without having to rely on synchro or slip clutch). That is just me.

You might say that, by double-clutching all the time, the clutch is under more stress (as it is pushed and released more). True that. You can call this a disadvantage of double clutching.

If the clutch and synchro should outlast the car (or the manufacturers should replace them for free), would I still do double-clutch heel-toe rev match all the time? Yes. I just like matching the rpm's of the turning parts, and enjoy the fun of it.

I can truly understand why some don't do rev-match all the time (or they do it only by slipping the clutch or whatever). I am NOT trying to change anyone.

To each their own. :cheers:

 

[Grimace427]

I rev-match habitually. It's all part of the fun of driving a manual trans for me. Dragging the clutch on a downshift just sounds and feels wrong to me. Once you've been driving a manual for a bit you will instinctively know where to upshift, same goes for blipping the throttle on a down shift. If I know I'm going to come to a stop I'll clutch in a coast/brake normally. If I can see traffic is slowing but will eventually speed up again I will downshift to keep RPM's up enough to accelerate when I need to.

 

[mikeyjobu]

After re-reading these posts, I'll say that I do rev match -- but would also note that I haven't done it while heel-toeing in a long time -- if I'm engine braking, I don't feel a need to blip with my heel -- and I can always grab the brakes in between shifts -- so you can drop a gear while leaving your foot on the gas to match the revs without blipping, get on the brakes, and if you need to drop another gear before accelerating, do that, and get back on the gas to accelerate. I'm assuming that those heel-toeing are doing it to combine braking with engine braking -- that's the logical assumption, and not just to drop to the correct gear to exit a corner. Similarly, when you slow down in traffic or going up to a light, you can shift into neutral, and then when you need to accelerate, just select the gear you need for that -- or to maintain speed, etc.

 

[Grimace427]

After re-reading these posts, I'll say that I do rev match -- but would also note that I haven't done it while heel-toeing in a long time -- if I'm engine braking, I don't feel a need to blip with my heel -- and I can always grab the brakes in between shifts -- so you can drop a gear while leaving your foot on the gas to match the revs without blipping, get on the brakes, and if you need to drop another gear before accelerating, to that, and get back on the gas to accelerate. I'm assuming that those heel-toeing are doing it to combine braking with engine braking -- that's the logical assumption, and not just to drop to the correct gear to exit a corner. Similarly, when you slow down in traffic or going up to a light, you can shift into neutral, and then when you need to accelerate, just select the gear you need for that -- or to maintain speed, etc.

I do the same if I only need to gradually brake such as when traffic is slowing more than engine braking will allow but not so much that we will come to a stop.

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