My number came up on the waiting list... but ADM

[Poppacapp]

Sigh. Its not capitalism. It's not a fair "fight" when you've bribed the referee to change the rules just for you, which is exactly what car dealerships did when they lobbied government to make it illegal for manufacturers to sell direct to consumers. What's hilarious is that it wasn't even their own dealer, but rather a new one, Tesla. How does Tesla selling direct affect a Ford/GM/Toyota/Honda dealer?

It doesn't, other than set the precedence for Ford/GM/Toyota/Honda to follow suit and do the same. THAT is what the dealers were afraid of, that they would no longer be able to price gouge and charge above MSRP on the foolish or the impulsive. They were afraid of competition, so they made their competition illegal. You can buy just about anything direct from the manufacturer, other than cars. Capitalism my ass.

Standard method dealerships are scared of the Tesla model. Many dealerships would lose their business with this model. And it is a MUCH better idea than the current method. Change is good, and I believe dealerships as they are now with the dishonest salespeople(I didn't say ALL of them, but alot of them) will be a thing of the past.

Say bye bye to the wolves ready to pounce on the next un-informed consumer. I have informed myself. I don't fall for the "games". :first:

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[Poppacapp]

I'm not so sure. I've looked at Porsche and BMW and maybe the most loaded GT350R + 20k you might be near one of them, but if you are looking at a lower option GT350 and 10k over it's hard to get into a competitive Porsche or BMW at that price (somewhere in the 60s).

Especially Porsche - unless you want a car with 200 something horsepower and zero options you are looking at a lot more cash.

If adm takes you anywhere near Porsche territory, jump that way. MUCH better cars than a GT350/Ford.

 

[healntoe]

Finally ...someone gets it.

CapitalISM is not a set in stone rule. It is a concept that evolves as our culture does. The framework is the same. BUT....

ONLY in the automotive industry with the antiquated selling model in place does the practice of ADM's occur. Its the only area of business where the manufacturer MSRP is seldom if ever honored by the store you are buying their product from. And where the middleman sets a subjective price on specialty cars they don't outright own.

You'll hear that the dealerships often take a hit on losses due to selling below MSRP, or even below invoice. But that's a total load of crap. The dealer invoice isn't usually what they pay either. If they can move guaranteed volume annually then their costs are less per unit. If they meet projected margins based on volume they are extended additional rebates. If they sit on items too long they can still flip some of the inventory to the lease or rental fleet and recoup losses. Then they can still flip those once again into their used car segment for a much higher profit margin SEE HOW THAT WORKS. Then there's the end of model year blow outs that pull more manufacturer incentives etc etc. That these dealers don't necessarily extend to their buyers. And lets not count out the dealers with a service center attached to them....more residuals for service and parts and maintenance on the cars they do sell new or used..

Really...dealers crying they make no money??? The Average GM pulls in 150k+ in this country. That's a good living in any demographic. If their salespeople don't make that much or more even based on the commission potential, then they're usually fired. So this one car ALONE does not make or break a dealership.

Weary of folks who don't know what they're talking about taking shots at dealers. Operating a dealership is a highly speculative business that requires a huge investment in inventory -- tens of millions (cars and parts) ...you do not have a clue what it takes to keep a dealership afloat. Keeping the lights on in the sales, service, parts, F&I and business office departments is huge...so that overhead must be met before the first car is sold. Most car sales result in a low GP (unless there are add-ons in F&I, parts, etc.) and usually the money gets made by stringing together many low GP deals which can result in bonus $ (depending on franchise) and volume. If a dealer does not reach the manufacturer's minimuim threshold to achieve the stair-step bonus money, then they they are out of luck for that month. All the while, paying interest on unsold inventory and relying on each department's profitability.

Yes, $150K is a good salary for a GM, but it is earned...long hours, employee issues, locating cars for customes etc. and besides, it requires a specific set of skills and a lot of sacrifice. Dealers are generally lumped together as greedy scumbags and it makes me ill...yes
some give the industry a black eye, but I do know that there are many that do business with integrity and honesty. So when I read about a knucklehead that pays MSRP +$10K, who can't wait and has to at the front of the line so they can have bragging rights it makes me grin just a little!

 

[Cruzinaround]

^ Again... One car does not make or break a dealership.

I know what goes into it. Don't ASSume you know me. You don't.

I agree completely with you that the bad apples tarnish the reputation for the rest.

 

[Cruzinaround]

But you are wrong. You may not get the highest level or performance as you would with 93 but 91 is completely safe in this engine. I guarantee the engine has been run with all levels of octane from 87-93 to test the ECU and make sure it can adjust properly. Modern cars have such advanced ECU that they can detect knock or detonation and back off timing as required so no damage is done. The ECU is constantly adjusting based on fuel, atmospheric conditions, octane, etc.

I don't know where you get your "facts" from but you need to do some more research.

EDIT: The Skyactiv engines in the newer Mazda 3 and 6 have compression ratios of 13:1 and can use 87 octane.

Well, we're both wrong until we see the actual data. But, knowing that these adjustments are typically reactive ...not proactive in these examples....there still has to be a ping or detonation detected before the ECU compensates. Knowing this, even with our modern tech the problem has to exist before the computer adjusts.

And...it would still be counter intuitive to buy a car with retarded performance due to the limitations of the fuel available to that demographic.

 

[healntoe]

^ Again... One car does not make or break a dealership.

I know what goes into it. Don't ASSume you know me. You don't.

I agree completely with you that the bad apples tarnish the reputation for the rest.

Not ASSuming anything, just challenging the accuracy of what you posted. Hate it when stereotypes get perpetuated by misinformation. Suggest that you educated yourself before making broad brush statements about this industry.

 

[drmustang]

Honestly can't think of an industry that has a worse reputation for dishonesty and chicanery than the retail car business. I always feel as if I need a shower when I walk out of one of those places.

 

[10splaya22]

Well, we're both wrong until we see the actual data. But, knowing that these adjustments are typically reactive ...not proactive in these examples....there still has to be a ping or detonation detected before the ECU compensates. Knowing this, even with our modern tech the problem has to exist before the computer adjusts.

And...it would still be counter intuitive to buy a car with retarded performance due to the limitations of the fuel available to that demographic.

But thats how cars are tuned. The n54 motor which I am most familiar with has been doing it for years. It has very sophisticated knock sensors that can adjust timing quickly as safely due to their sensitivity. The ECU has base timing values and those can be advanced or retarded based on the conditions.

Just because you put 93 in doesn't mean the car won't knock or ping at all. The ECU will adjust timing as necessary to get rid of it. Think of it as more of a soft limit. It will adjust up to that limit but then back it off for safety. It does this constantly as you are driving. So a car with 93 will be tuned the same way from the factory as a car with 91 but the 93 car will have the ECU run slightly more timing for more power.

And...it would still be counter intuitive to buy a car with retarded performance due to the limitations of the fuel available to that demographic.

So you are saying since 91 is the highest octane in CA that they shouldn't buy the car there because it will have slightly less performance?

 

[krt22]

^Its a high compression performance oriented engine. There is a gas guzzler tax on it and it's "r" variant uses the same exact motor. It would be safe to say.... high octane is the preferred level this car is being tested with. Anything less should expect a degraded performance level. Along with the lingering effects of low octane in a high compression motor due to detonation...especially in a warmer climate during all 4 seasons.

It's really a non-issue with modern engines and ECUs. Heck you can run teh coyote on 87 with only a 1-2% peak horsepower loss (this is per ford), and with its 11:01 static compression ratio which is still "high" by most standards.

And all the conditions you mentioned, well 9 out of 10 times they wont ever factor into the region you typically start to see knock if you are octane limited. When the engine isnt fully loaded (partial throttle) or not loaded at all (ie in closed loop during cruising), it rarely comes it play. The only time it will really matter are extended sessions at the track, in which case you can blend in a little race fuel for safety.

And im not really sure why you care so much about what fuel we have in CA (and other states who have 91 only). It doesn't effect you or your car, so why does it matter?

 

[Cruzinaround]

Not ASSuming anything, just challenging the accuracy of what you posted. Hate it when stereotypes get perpetuated by misinformation. Suggest that you educated yourself before making broad brush statements about this industry.

^Actually the general feedback from current Market research supports the overall stereotypes.

I don't perpetuate anything... I can possibly confirm some stereotypes but, certainly not perpetuate. That is all taken care of by the people who step up and own it.

 

[Cruzinaround]

But thats how cars are tuned. The n54 motor which I am most familiar with has been doing it for years. It has very sophisticated knock sensors that can adjust timing quickly as safely due to their sensitivity. The ECU has base timing values and those can be advanced or retarded based on the conditions.

Just because you put 93 in doesn't mean the car won't knock or ping at all. The ECU will adjust timing as necessary to get rid of it. Think of it as more of a soft limit. It will adjust up to that limit but then back it off for safety. It does this constantly as you are driving. So a car with 93 will be tuned the same way from the factory as a car with 91 but the 93 car will have the ECU run slightly more timing for more power.



So you are saying since 91 is the highest octane in CA that they shouldn't buy the car there because it will have slightly less performance?

No they can buy what they want...I'm just saying their expectations should be lower than the projected performance numbers because the motor will be retarded when the ECU compensates. Which makes this for any logical thinking person....an illogical purchase.

It sort of makes you question the purchase just in that demographic... since you aren't really getting what you pay for.

 

[aethyr]

Standard method dealerships are scared of the Tesla model. Many dealerships would lose their business with this model. And it is a MUCH better idea than the current method. Change is good, and I believe dealerships as they are now with the dishonest salespeople(I didn't say ALL of them, but alot of them) will be a thing of the past.

Say bye bye to the wolves ready to pounce on the next un-informed consumer. I have informed myself. I don't fall for the "games". :first:

Dealerships wouldn't have to go out of business if they simply changed and adapted to the competition. A manufacturer selling direct will always sell at MSRP, not under and not over. So if a dealer can be efficient, they will be able to sell under and therefore always have customers. This is the case for nearly every product in America - when was the last time you paid MSRP on a tv or laptop? Street prices for these are way lower than MSRP because the stores have become efficient enough to sell below and still make a profit.

Now, would those stores LOVE to sell much higher at MSRP or (gasp, even higher) and make more money? Of course. But competition has eliminated that. People quote capitalism, but forget that capitalism is supposed to be better for the consumer, that competition will result in better products, cheaper. And Ford, as a result of competition against GM and Toyota and everyone else, has produced a great product for its price. The dealers, on the other hand, by reducing competition, have increased price.

Weary of folks who don't know what they're talking about taking shots at dealers. Operating a dealership is a highly speculative business that requires a huge investment in inventory -- tens of millions (cars and parts) ...you do not have a clue what it takes to keep a dealership afloat. Keeping the lights on in the sales, service, parts, F&I and business office departments is huge...so that overhead must be met before the first car is sold. Most car sales result in a low GP (unless there are add-ons in F&I, parts, etc.) and usually the money gets made by stringing together many low GP deals which can result in bonus $ (depending on franchise) and volume. If a dealer does not reach the manufacturer's minimuim threshold to achieve the stair-step bonus money, then they they are out of luck for that month. All the while, paying interest on unsold inventory and relying on each department's profitability.

Yes, $150K is a good salary for a GM, but it is earned...long hours, employee issues, locating cars for customes etc. and besides, it requires a specific set of skills and a lot of sacrifice. Dealers are generally lumped together as greedy scumbags and it makes me ill...yes
some give the industry a black eye, but I do know that there are many that do business with integrity and honesty. So when I read about a knucklehead that pays MSRP +$10K, who can't wait and has to at the front of the line so they can have bragging rights it makes me grin just a little!

This is true with any large business. Grocery stores, electronics stores. Grocery stores have razor thin margins. And I've seen these go out of business, millions lost in investment.

But dealerships have something that grocery stores don't - exclusivity on a specific brand. While 3 grocery stores within a mile of each other can all sell the same brands, there is only 1 Ford dealer in a given area. This creates a small, local monopoly on that brand. And that gives a lot of protection to a dealer. Its not easy running a dealership day-to-day, but unless there are colossal f-ups, a dealer isn't going to go out of business either.

And monopolies (which are against the principles of capitalism) fosters douchebaggery. Imagine if there were 3 Ford dealers within a mile of each other. Do you think any one of them could get away with being a scumbag? Or if there was a Ford store with non-commision sales reps who simply took your order at MSRP and 2 weeks later, your car shows up for pick up?

 

[krt22]

It really doesnt matter, most californians dont know didly about it anyway, will never track/race the car, will rarely see redline, and wont ever put it on a dyno. Not to mention any high performance car they might be cross shopping will be subject to the same minuscule shift in performance. Its not like we are taking about a race bred engine that is on the verge of pulling timing on every pull. I'm sure 526hp is a very conservative number, so 2 octane points lower isnt going to cause any huge shift in performance or present any long term longevity concerns.

 

[drmustang]

The 526 HP is SAE certified and will be spot on. There is no such thing as "underrating" when the SAE protocols are followed.

 

[healntoe]

Honestly can't think of an industry that has a worse reputation for dishonesty and chicanery than the retail car business. I always feel as if I need a shower when I walk out of one of those places.

...and that's why people who walk into a dealership ought to have a better understanding of how dealerships and auto manufacturers operate! Same stereotype mentioned above. And as consumers, we are taught to expect that if a car dealer makes money on a transaction, that's a bad thing

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