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GT350 vs. Z/28

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thePill

thePill

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Neither does a Cayman, 911, Turbo, GT3, 458, Speciale, 12C, etc... It does not matter and no one cares. People who race will buy the 'spec' calipers/rotors/suspension to go racing. No one else cares, quit bringing it up.
None of those cars were in a Mustang or Camaro class. Those are GT cars and they have a lot of changes. GT is a 450+RWHP class, those cars fit there...

Don't be butthurt, the z28 sucks, neither you or I were responsible for that.
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I think you guys are reaching... If GTS is 300-400 I have no issues believing IMSA at 350-405.
None of those cars were in a Mustang or Camaro class. Those are GT cars and they have a lot of changes. GT is a 450+RWHP class, those cars fit there...

Don't be butthurt, the z28 sucks, neither you or I were responsible for that.
I don't care about the Z28, i'm just pointing out your nonsense. Like the fact the Cayman and base 911 is NOT a 450whp+ car :headbonk:

If you read the RULEBOOK:

Porsche 997 Carrera GTS (3.8L Direct Fuel Injection) GS


A 3.8L GTS is a 408hp motor from the factory. Remove the cats, and tune it with the allowed Bosch motorsports ECU for the higher octane race fuel. I'm sure it'll make quite a bit more than that... I've said this months ago, yet you conveniently forget this type of information.

I agree with you that the Z28 is making more power than the rest of the field. However you have got to stop saying stupid things and providing such poor references and using heresay as 'facts'.
 
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I don't care about the Z28, i'm just pointing out your nonsense. Like the fact the Cayman and base 911 is NOT a 450whp+ car :headbonk:

If you read the RULEBOOK:

Porsche 997 Carrera GTS (3.8L Direct Fuel Injection) GS


A 3.8L GTS is a 408hp motor from the factory. Remove the cats, and tune it with the allowed Bosch motorsports ECU for the higher octane race fuel. I'm sure it'll make quite a bit more than that... I've said this months ago, yet you conveniently forget this type of information.

I agree with you that the Z28 is making more power than the rest of the field. However you have got to stop saying stupid things and providing such poor references and using heresay as 'facts'.
:lol:

The 997 makes 408 Horsepower at the crank, with drivetrain losses (rear engine around 10%) puts a 997 right in the middle of 350-405.

The M3 makes 416, w/ two 36mm tubes, it should fall right in the 350-405 range.

The Boss makes 444hp, with a 57mm restriction, one would be right in the middle of the 350-405 spectrum.

These cars use 100 octane, tune and exhaust. I'm sure none of these cars produce over 405rwhp... Even a modded Boss 302 (tune/exhaust) gets close to 400, but not over.

Try and remember, factory horsepower is rated at the crank at the engine. These class limits are determined via dyno and is at the rear wheels.

RWD is typically 13%
Rear Engine/Mid-engine is sometimes lower.

I can't see why you would confuse Net horsepower with rear wheel...
 

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Not losing any sleep....just irritating...like a fly or mosquito that buzzes your head, but stays just out of swatting range.
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:lol:

The 997 makes 408 Horsepower at the crank, with drivetrain losses (rear engine around 10%) puts a 997 right in the middle of 350-405.

The M3 makes 416, w/ two 36mm tubes, it should fall right in the 350-405 range.

The Boss makes 444hp, with a 57mm restriction, one would be right in the middle of the 350-405 spectrum.

These cars use 100 octane, tune and exhaust. I'm sure none of these cars produce over 405rwhp... Even a modded Boss 302 (tune/exhaust) gets close to 400, but not over.

Try and remember, factory horsepower is rated at the crank at the engine. These class limits are determined via dyno and is at the rear wheels.

RWD is typically 13%
Rear Engine/Mid-engine is sometimes lower.

I can't see why you would confuse Net horsepower with rear wheel...
Your constant twisting of what I said to discredit me is pathetic. I never confused HP at the crank with whp. Last year YOU took this "Rule" of 350-405hp (as found in the FAN GUIDE) as Net, Crank HP. After multiple posts proving to you that the cars are making well over that; you have now shifted to quoting the 350-405hp as Wheel HP, and still "The Rule". Most cars do fall in that range at the tire but there are some exceptions. All of this is pointless banter and irrelevant anyway since it's not a "rule". As I mentioned last year, there are examples of cars that are making more than 405whp:

406whp stock Boss:
http://themustangsource.com/forums/f813/dyno-stock-2012-boss-302-406whp-500467/

416whp stock Boss:
http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/track-tests/2012-ford-mustang-boss-302-dyno-tested.html

417whp stock Boss, 459whp tuned:
http://www.boss302.com/smf/index.php?topic=58424.0

370Z built to CTSCC spec:
http://www.onpointdyno.com/?page_id=3474

Also, the Porsche and M3 (as well as the Boss) will make even more power with cat deletes and ECUs tuned for race fuel and specific exhaust systems (which are open), designed by the teams to get as much power out of them as possible. You nitpick over nothing, twist facts and my words around, and constantly LIE. I'm still not sure if you are a pathological liar or incompetent. But you demonstrate one of the two on an hourly basis.
 

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Your constant twisting of what I said to discredit me is pathetic. I never confused HP at the crank with whp. Last year YOU took this "Rule" of 350-405hp (as found in the FAN GUIDE) as Net, Crank HP. After multiple posts proving to you that the cars are making well over that; you have now shifted to quoting the 350-405hp as Wheel HP, and still "The Rule". Most cars do fall in that range at the tire but there are some exceptions. All of this is pointless banter and irrelevant anyway since it's not a "rule". As I mentioned last year, there are examples of cars that are making more than 405whp:

406whp stock Boss:
http://themustangsource.com/forums/f813/dyno-stock-2012-boss-302-406whp-500467/

416whp stock Boss:
http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/track-tests/2012-ford-mustang-boss-302-dyno-tested.html

417whp stock Boss, 459whp tuned:
http://www.boss302.com/smf/index.php?topic=58424.0

370Z built to CTSCC spec:
http://www.onpointdyno.com/?page_id=3474

Also, the Porsche and M3 (as well as the Boss) will make even more power with cat deletes and ECUs tuned for race fuel and specific exhaust systems (which are open), designed by the teams to get as much power out of them as possible. You nitpick over nothing, twist facts and my words around, and constantly LIE. I'm still not sure if you are a pathological liar or incompetent. But you demonstrate one of the two on an hourly basis.
.........What does the LS7 make in the same tune?
 
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Your constant twisting of what I said to discredit me is pathetic. I never confused HP at the crank with whp. Last year YOU took this "Rule" of 350-405hp (as found in the FAN GUIDE) as Net, Crank HP. After multiple posts proving to you that the cars are making well over that; you have now shifted to quoting the 350-405hp as Wheel HP, and still "The Rule". Most cars do fall in that range at the tire but there are some exceptions. All of this is pointless banter and irrelevant anyway since it's not a "rule". As I mentioned last year, there are examples of cars that are making more than 405whp:

406whp stock Boss:
http://themustangsource.com/forums/f813/dyno-stock-2012-boss-302-406whp-500467/

416whp stock Boss:
http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/track-tests/2012-ford-mustang-boss-302-dyno-tested.html

417whp stock Boss, 459whp tuned:
http://www.boss302.com/smf/index.php?topic=58424.0

370Z built to CTSCC spec:
http://www.onpointdyno.com/?page_id=3474

Also, the Porsche and M3 (as well as the Boss) will make even more power with cat deletes and ECUs tuned for race fuel and specific exhaust systems (which are open), designed by the teams to get as much power out of them as possible. You nitpick over nothing, twist facts and my words around, and constantly LIE. I'm still not sure if you are a pathological liar or incompetent. But you demonstrate one of the two on an hourly basis.
So the LS7 makes what? Is there still a large horsepower advantage? I'd say yes... And since the Boss and M3 are restricted, I'd say most of the V8's are well under 405.

You are WRONG.

By the way, 406 and 416 is the highest I have ever seen a Boss dyno. The guy even says that in the thread. Most are around 380-390, about 20 more than the GT. Edmunds Dyno's the GT in 4th gear and got 390rwhp. I think everyone knows that is wrong. You need to dyno in 5th w/the Getrag but some dyno operators don't like doing 150mph on the roller. A simple Google Images check of "Boss 302 Dynos" will show you hundreds of Boss engines between 370-nearly 400. I think they are right where they needed to be... But that's the advantage of Motorsport R&D.

The 370z you posted is actually a 350z, nothing in common with the 3.8.


Sorry, both GS and GTS are limited to around 400hp, both the Boss 302R and S should be right around there unrestricted. That's just the way it is.


Everything you put up here has led everyone back to the LS7 being too much for the class. I would have enjoyed a more competitive circumstance but alas, Chevy cannot build.

It's no lie, the classes have output limits, always have.

It's no lie the z28 needed major changes to be competitive.

It's no lie the z28 needed major rule changes to be competitive.

It's no lie that the z28 is done by 3rd Parties.

It's no lie that the z28 has major equipment advantages.

It's no lie they were permitted a 500lbs weight reduction.

It's no lie the z28 enjoys a hefty output advantage.

I think that about does it for the z28 in class racing... Not much else left for discussion. Build a better Camaro, build a better engine, come back when that's complete.
 
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So the LS7 makes what? Is there still a large horsepower advantage? I'd say yes... And since the Boss and M3 are restricted, I'd say most of the V8's are well under 405.

You are WRONG.
Wow... Didn't we already come to an agreement that the Boss does not have a restrictor, and hasn't since the middle of last year? :frusty:

The 370z you posted is actually a 350z, nothing in common with the 3.8.
First off; the Porsche has a 3.8L. The 370Z has a 3.7L VQ37 which is allowed the 350Z's VQ35HR heads, headers, and is a frankenstein motor. The link I sent was of a 350Z that had a 370Z block and was basically the same build. I told you this last year. :frusty:

Sorry, both GS and GTS are limited to around 400hp, both the Boss 302R and S should be right around there unrestricted. That's just the way it is.
You don't think the 302R would make more power than a stock car with the cats removed, a race-tuned exhaust, and a race tuned ECU on 100-octane fuel? :crazy:

It's no lie the z28 needed major changes to be competitive.
Its "major" changes are carbon doors, hood, and trunk. Which technically aren't needed when it's by far the heaviest car in the field.

It's no lie that the z28 is done by 3rd Parties
So is the Boss and every car in the series. :frusty:

It's no lie that the z28 has major equipment advantages.
I agree, big engine, great chassis (although, probably not an 'advantage', just pretty good), and GREAT aero.

It's no lie they were permitted a 500lbs weight reduction.
Actually it is a lie. They came into the series at 3,300lbs, similar to the M3 and Boss; but they were too fast and needed a restrictor and weight to slow them down.

It's no lie the z28 enjoys a hefty output advantage.

I think that about does it for the z28 in class racing... Not much else left for discussion. Build a better Camaro, build a better engine, come back when that's complete.
I agree and I'm really getting tired of how dense you are and how you so quickly forget that the Boss does not have a restrictor... I'm out. Please continue your lies, twisting the facts, and spewing nonsense out for 'entertainment'.

I've said this numerous times: thePill is wrong most of the time when it comes to rules, his understanding of physics, his analysis (due to inexperience and inability), and most of which he posts is exaggerated, twisted, and complete nonsense. Take his posts for entertainment value and with a grain of salt because he's been proven time and time again that he's wrong and his tactics are really getting old by twisting others words around, straight up lying, and conveniently forgetting information just for the sake of his blind hatred for GM.


I don't mind his bias for Ford; but it's pretty crappy and completely unnecessary to lie in order to prove Mustangs are great cars. Because they are fantastic, competitive, and awesome cars on their own without having to resort to such means.

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WHAT DOES THE LS7 MAKE IN THE SAME STATE OF TUNE? YOU CLAIM THE BOSS MAKES 459HP........:rant:
 

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I never claimed the boss made 459whp; I just posted a link after a quick google search of a tuned street car. I also never disagreed that the Z28 even restricted has a power advantage over the 302R. I dont agree with thePills media/fan guide "sources" but if an unrestricted Boss makes well over its factory 444bhp; its logical an unrestricted camaro is also well over its factory 500bhp. Remove the cats, tune the exhaust and ecu... I'd guess 530bhp+. Restricted there was an 'official' figure in the mid-high 400whp range and its likely still higher than a 302R if you watch the CTSCC races on TV.
 

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Are the power rating restrictions in PWC/CTSCC crank or wheel? I suspect it is wheel as crank power, to be accurately measured, would require the engine to be pulled and put on an engine dyno
 

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Are the power rating restrictions in PWC/CTSCC crank or wheel? I suspect it is wheel as crank power, to be accurately measured, would require the engine to be pulled and put on an engine dyno
There is no 'official' power rating/restriction in CTSCC. They have put cars on the chassis dyno in the past but now engines are sent to the NASCAR technical center to be dynoed with various restrictors. Results are not shared with teams or published and are held internally. From there, they decide what the best "Balance Of Performance" (BOP) method from weight, restrictor, tire size, fuel capacity, RPM limit, etc... depending on the on-track performance of cars at various tracks. Its not an easy job and they don't always get it right. The Camaros still seem to have an inherent advantage from a power and fuel capacity standpoint.
 

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There is no 'official' power rating/restriction in CTSCC. They have put cars on the chassis dyno in the past but now engines are sent to the NASCAR technical center to be dynoed with various restrictors. Results are not shared with teams or published and are held internally. From there, they decide what the best "Balance Of Performance" (BOP) method from weight, restrictor, tire size, fuel capacity, RPM limit, etc... depending on the on-track performance of cars at various tracks. Its not an easy job and they don't always get it right. The Camaros still seem to have an inherent advantage from a power and fuel capacity standpoint.
OK, now you just stated that you do not know what the Boss makes. Plus you just stated that you do not know what the ls7 makes. I've seen ls7s make 550hp with long tubes and open exhaust. So it does look like chevy is getting their hand held by this series. Chevy makes a good performance car for the street. But that brand's on track performance is horrible unless they are getting massive rule concessions. This has been the case since the 1960's. I have never seen the allure to this brand. They are addicted to the aftermarket (street) and dependent to "favors" on the track......:ford:
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