GT350 vs. Z/28

[FATTBoss]

Just when I thought I would be happy owning the last and best handling solid axle Mustang and would let go any thoughts of replacing it, Ford goes and does this?!?!? Sweet lord Jesus.

I informed my wife this morning that Ford may have seriously dented our retirement plans. Like you Pill, I think this car is light years beyond my ability, but I am willing to give it a shot!

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[thePill]

Just when I thought I would be happy owning the last and best handling solid axle Mustang and would let go any thoughts of replacing it, Ford goes and does this?!?!? Sweet lord Jesus.

I informed my wife this morning that Ford may have seriously dented our retirement plans. Like you Pill, I think this car is light years beyond my ability, but I am willing to give it a shot!

If I could get to the track every weekend and spent a season learning the car, I could probably have it wrung out next year... That's if it isn't crashed though. I would need dozens and dozens of hours of seat time to catch up to this level.

There hasn't been a season that I have participated in and haven't got into something.

 

[1320']

Honestly..I wish a group would get together with a base GT, GT+PP, GT+Recaro, GT PP Recaro etc and just have a scales day. Weigh each car full, 3/4 tank, half tank, 1/4 tank and empty, and then decontent them in documented stages.

Consumers have had the car for nearly 4 months now, it's not that hard.

 

[thePill]

Honestly..I wish a group would get together with a base GT, GT+PP, GT+Recaro, GT PP Recaro etc and just have a scales day. Weigh each car full, 3/4 tank, half tank, 1/4 tank and empty, and then decontent them in documented stages.

Consumers have had the car for nearly 4 months now, it's not that hard.

Our first GT delivered was scaled, it was done at different levels of reduction. With a 1/4 tank, it was under 3600lbs but I believe the washer fluid was removed as well as some truck fluff and tire kit. I was never told all the little things removed but, the fact is, the GT was well into the 35XX range.

 

[FATTBoss]

If I could get to the track every weekend and spent a season learning the car, I could probably have it wrung out next year... That's if it isn't crashed though. I would need dozens and dozens of hours of seat time to catch up to this level.

There hasn't been a season that I have participated in and haven't got into something.

Here's the rub for me, I DO get on track often. I manage a track not far from you, but not PITT Race, and even then I couldn't get all out of this car. The speeds it is capable of in stock form make me nervous to do it with out a roll cage and full compliment of safety gear. Hans, 6 point, etc. Even my Boss 302 without such equipment makes me hold back since I am not putting all that gear in my car.

And speaking of PITT Race, I may try to get up there this year to check out the new track extension. They also do a timed program on weekday nights that has me curious to see how they run it as I would like to do a similar program here. Maybe we could finally meet if I do make it up that way.

 

[thePill]

Here's the rub for me, I DO get on track often. I manage a track not far from you, but not PITT Race, and even then I couldn't get all out of this car. The speeds it is capable of in stock form make me nervous to do it with out a roll cage and full compliment of safety gear. Hans, 6 point, etc. Even my Boss 302 without such equipment makes me hold back since I am not putting all that gear in my car.

And speaking of PITT Race, I may try to get up there this year to check out the new track extension. They also do a timed program on weekday nights that has me curious to see how they run it as I would like to do a similar program here. Maybe we could finally meet if I do make it up that way.

Let me know when you go up, I can help and have access to garages w/ equipment and lifts in the area. You don't need to have a sponsor, I will "work my magic" if we need to use any facility off-site.

I crashed last season in AS in a '99 Camaro at that very track but, it wasn't as bad as the 2nd crash last season (not me). The car had less than 9000 miles on the odo.

I do meet with people on here whenever I get a chance, especially during events.

Edit: Actually, thePill will be your sponsor when you (or any other Mustanger) runs the Beav. You guys let me know when you are coming into town, there is a Holiday Inn down the road where most Pitt guys stay while racing.

 

[FATTBoss]

I'm strictly an HPDE guy. I want to go back to PITT as it appears they have made many changes under current ownership and I am curious about the changes from a "competitor venue" standpoint.

 

[thePill]

I'm strictly an HPDE guy. I want to go back to PITT as it appears they have made many changes under current ownership and I am curious about the changes from a "competitor venue" standpoint.

They were doing Flash Light Drags last year but I think the owner only agree because they were closed down in Zelie. It is a nice environment and the track has come a long way since the Beaver Run days. It has become very active over the last 5 years and continues to host SCCA.

The 1LE debuted there in T2, I attended. In some SCCA documents, the 1LE was called "Z-28" and "Z28". I could have also sworn the loud speaker said "Z 28" when announcing the team and driver. The paint scheme SCREAMED Trans Am so, it could have actually been a flashback. However, I believe he had seen some of the same documentation I had. The SCCA had the 1LE listed as "Z28" in the Race Results on the site as well... I never understood what happened there...

Anyway, I like the idea that Ford chose to not put too much money in the vehicles consumables. That is a HUGE unseen issue with the z28, the god awful cost of replacements.

Ford went with a very lightweight wheel, a naturally balanced, 7 point design and eliminated a huge amount of rotational mass, unsprung weight and of course, weight overall. This is helpful, not nearly as helpful as R rubber or Carbon Ceramic Brakes but, it says two things...

First, Ford didn't use a tire to make the car fast. I hate that Chevy did this, like it or not, believe it or not, the z28 is a BIG portion of tire. Yes, sticky tires with an almost non-existent treadwear rating do help the vehicle immensely. I don't care what anyone says, its nonsense to convince people otherwise. Still, the Michelins are no pushovers... They are very livable, although, they are still pricey but, we should be able to afford that. This is where your average Mustang owner shops on a regular basis, tires... On some occasions, tires are approved to be changed in some classes. In most cases however, drivers tend to change these first thing due to the performance gains for the cost and ease of modification.

Tires are tires, they do great things... but Chevy dumped a large portion of their stock into the tires. This is an extremely fast consumable not suited for the street really. I'm glad Ford didn't get too far out of control here. Besides, it leaves ALOT of room for improvements. What would an R rubber tire do on a GT350, Track Pack and GT350R? It is shaping up to be a massacre. While the z28's tires are great, they are merely a Band-Aid for a bad platform. The S197 was no stranger to band-aids, nor is any vehicle that has spent a decade being profitable. Good on you Ford, get your performance from the chassis first, then move onto the particulars. It shows what the platform can do. Keep in mind, those 305's in the front will need to be 295's to compete. There are very few classes that allow a 305 in the front.

Next, the Carbon Ceramic Brakes... They would be 394mm or, I believe 15.5 inches right? Well, those front brakes need to be swapped to compete in the SCCA. The organization has a maximum size of 355mm or 14 inches. You can waiver up to 380mm or 15 inches. The GT uses those as standard 355mm and the optional Track Pack at 380mm. The issue is done with the GT350, just drop the old steel rotors, mount your 15 inch rotors from Ford Racing and you are good to go. The z28 cannot do any of that... First, the Carbon Ceramic Brakes are illegal to run pretty much Worldwide. They would need to be changed completely to compete and when I say completely, I mean completely. Even the ABS system uses a unique calibration. The rotors and calipers cannot be just removed and replaced, the whole entire system needs to be replaced... That is why those brake may be a bad idea. Now, Track Days and HPDE/Club Racing, I'd say get them if you can afford them and really want them. Track days are pretty much No Holds Barred and Anything Goes but if you want to compete, you cannot use these brakes.

Most of the brake issues in racing is improper fluid or, not using stainless steel lines. I would rather use a nice disposable cast iron/steel rotor. They are cheap and, get this, they seem to be lighter. I have heard this from both GM and Ford, Carbon Ceramic Brakes are heavier than the Steel alternative. I prefer less rotational mass always... and I would love to have the endurance of a CCB but, the cost to use them are far too high.

I think there are Steel alternatives that can match the performance of the Carbon Ceramic's, they are expensive when comparing them to other Steel rotors but, compared to a CCB kit, they are very attractive.

Essentially, what the z28 did was use tires and rotors to overcome it's many, many platform and suspension flaws. Between the weight reduction, brakes, wheels and tires, the z28 was priced to death. Far and away from any real Z/28 heritage (a real Z/28) that was mentioned off and on. I have always said there should have been at least two z28's, like what the GT350 has done. Just to ensure that every need was met. A base LS7 Camaro in 1LE everything would have went over pretty well I think. I don't wanna hear any purist B@llsh!T now, the '14-'15 z28 is not what you think it is, it was made to sell.. that's all...

The GT350 (not the Track Pack or R), I mean just the GT350 is probably pushing my talents edge as is. The GT350 has kinda pushed the Mustang up into the GT classes and that is something everyone is just going to need to get use to. A GT350 vs. a Stingray might be brought up more than Chevy would like. The only problem is, the GT350R is probably significantly faster than the Z51... I am betting the GT350 and Z51 are in direct competition now in more ways than one. It will be cool to see a Mustang and Corvette go head to head, the ONLY two American Icons.

Keeping the MSRP reasonable while trying to make it out perform everything is difficult. The thing nobody ever talks about is the cost to keep that z28 lapping that fast? Those tires, the brakes... that is big money even if it could register to compete. The GT350 should be a better attempt unless homologation really doesn't matter anymore.

If Magnetic Ride Control is standard, then it will eliminate the GT350, GT350TP or GT350R from competition. MRC and ALL the components and computer systems for it must be replaced. The ABS will not function properly so, the ABS Module needs replaced and so on....

If the GT350 has MRC standard on any level, it is BAD. If it is optional, please consider if you will compete/race with the vehicle before you option. Magnetic Ride Control is GREAT, the future indeed but, you can't race. Give it some thought... MRC was noted as OPTIONAL on the GT350 and GT350TP. The GT350R shouldn't have it as an option at all BUT, I feel it should be offered on EVERY street legal Mustang.

I was initially told that the GT350TP was used to bump the z28 from the limelight but, I feel the GT350R will be used due to the "Stripper" type vehicle. Ford is definitely trying to undercut the z28, I can't see it coming under $60,000. I think the GT350 and GT350TP will be $53k and $59k. The GT350R hopefully starts around $65,000. The GT350TP and Stingray Z51 should be close... The GT350R will likely dominate the z28... I don't think they want a head to head, punch for punch stand-off... They want a massacre...

 

[FATTBoss]

If the R is $65k, count me in. At least in a few years when cooler heads prevail on pricing. I see these cars commanding some ADM for quite some time. In a few years I will be ready to buy another car and this car will be on the list, in R trim and with no tech package.

 

[1320']

If the R is $65k, count me in. At least in a few years when cooler heads prevail on pricing. I see these cars commanding some ADM for quite some time. In a few years I will be ready to buy another car and this car will be on the list, in R trim and with no tech package.

The instant FoMoCo said "limited production" about the R..I instantly saw ADM exploding in the hearts of greedy dealers everywhere.

 

[thePill]

The instant FoMoCo said "limited production" about the R..I instantly saw ADM exploding in the hearts of greedy dealers everywhere.

Did you notice how many digits the Dash plaque has in it?

Chassis VP001.

500 is the minimum for homologation and it would end with 999.

 

[Highwayman]

Honestly..I wish a group would get together with a base GT, GT+PP, GT+Recaro, GT PP Recaro etc and just have a scales day. Weigh each car full, 3/4 tank, half tank, 1/4 tank and empty, and then decontent them in documented stages.

Consumers have had the car for nearly 4 months now, it's not that hard.

I've got a PP base GT with Recarros and access to a calibrated scale. I'll grab some weights for mine.

 

[Sasuketr]

Guys there is a ton of wrong information going on here, a member scaled his car it was 3 months ago before the website got updated, here is what he had; ingot silver premium 401a gt pp, 68b, active alarm, rear sensing system full tank of fuel the car scaled at 3815 lbs. i know this cause i have the same setup. When you say fully loaded you are adding Active Cruise Control, 50th Aniv package with those huge 20 inch wheels which is almost as same as a limited edition model. If i remember right, with auto the limited eds scale at 3870 lbs ( Fully Loaded). A base GTPP was around 3740 lbs, so its right on that a base gt is at 3705 lbs. Now the only way i see the 350R being 500 lbs less than a base gt is using ton of carbon fiber, no sound insulation, 1 speaker, no air conditioning, no back and passenger seat, lighter wheels, no junk in the trunk, lighter brakes, lighter drive shaft, smaller gas tank what else?

 

[thePill]

Guys there is a ton of wrong information going on here, a member scaled his car it was 3 months ago before the website got updated, here is what he had; ingot silver premium 401a gt pp, 68b, active alarm, rear sensing system full tank of fuel the car scaled at 3815 lbs. i know this cause i have the same setup. When you say fully loaded you are adding Active Cruise Control, 50th Aniv package with those huge 20 inch wheels which is almost as same as a limited edition model. If i remember right, with auto the limited eds scale at 3870 lbs ( Fully Loaded). A base GTPP was around 3740 lbs, so its right on that a base gt is at 3705 lbs. Now the only way i see the 350R being 500 lbs less than a base gt is using ton of carbon fiber, no sound insulation, 1 speaker, no air conditioning, no back and passenger seat, lighter wheels, no junk in the trunk, lighter brakes, lighter drive shaft, smaller gas tank what else?

So the Performance Package only weighs 35lbs? The differance in brakes alone is nearly that. The suspension, wheels and tires are considerably larger than the Base 18's. The cooler? 10lbs? 15? I can't even tell you what else...

The Base weight for the German car is 3658lbs... I don't know...

The Corvettes Z51 package added 150lbs, how come Ford's Pack is only 30lbs? Recaro's were included in that scaled weight too? Are they not lighter than the standard seats?

There are GTPP's from 3720 to 3740lbs, I can't see the new PP being any less than 70lbs, similar to previous years.

Fully Loaded as in the Stand alone options, per the Car and Driver scaled car. It was also 3814lbs.

The Premium Package weight includes 6 additional speakers, amp, driver/passenger electric heated/cooled adjustable seats. That is almost 90lbs of weight there alone. From 3815lbs, just removing the PP and Premium weight gets you closer to the EU weight.

Unless the packages and options weight less this time but...

 

[1320']

BTW, the order guides for the GT350/350R have leaked.

MagneRide is part of the 350R but is optional on the 350.

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