GM is pulling back on EVs

[martinjlm]

But Ford could have released it with absolutely zero problems.

“We had a fire this is what happened and we are doing everything with in our power to make sure it doesn’t happen again to keep our employees and the public safe.”

It doesn’t look good on Ford that someone had to file a FOIA request to get the video. Conspiracy or not it just doesn’t present itself well to the public.

I don’t think Ford actually had the video. It was video someone else took on Ford’s property. It is in Ford’s best interest to require permission for public use of video taken on their property so as not to establish a precedent for random people taking random pictures on their property and publishing.

Example…a supplier is on premises for a meeting. On the way to the parking lot a Ford prototype drives by and they snap a picture. If Ford doesn’t maintain and exercise providence over images taken on their property they would not be able to prevent that supplier from posting pics of the prototype all over the internet.

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[martinjlm]

So you’re telling me that Ford had no cameras on their property. Are you that thick? So you’re telling me that Ford has no cameras that caught this on their property and could have released it on their own. Seriously take a break from the forum sit down and think about the garbage you just posted.

It’s not a question of whether or not Ford has cameras on the property. Of course they do. The footage on the news was 3rd party footage taken on Ford’s property, not Ford’s video.

 

[Gregs24]

So you’re telling me that Ford had no cameras on their property. Are you that thick? So you’re telling me that Ford has no cameras that caught this on their property and could have released it on their own. Seriously take a break from the forum sit down and think about the garbage you just posted.

No I'm not thick as you so charmingly put it. We have already covered that one in a previous post.

Why do Ford need to publish the film (that wasn't theirs)? Why do Ford need to publish CCTV?

They have told you they have had a fire, found the cause and recalled the cars - EXACTLY what you said they should be doing. How does a video of the fire make ANY difference?

Seriously take a break from the forum sit down and think about the garbage you just posted. - INDEED YOU SHOULD!

 

[K4fxd]

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/americans-aren-t-lining-buy-114500321.html

Seems Americans don't like the BEV's.

there is another report floating around taht shows most who bought BEV's are trading them for PHEV's.

 

[martinjlm]

Seems Americans don't like the BEV's.

there is another report floating around taht shows most who bought BEV's are trading them for PHEV's.

All I’ll say to this is that I work as a consultant for the company that is the leading source in the industry for vehicles sales, registration, and forecasting of production and sales data. Our data shows the exact opposite. By a lot. I’ll repeat what I said earlier in this thread and post a chart with the detail. In February, the #1 selling vehicle in the country was the Tesla Model Y. The #10 was Tesla Model 3. PHEVs aren’t even close on the sales charts. Model Y by itself outsells all PHEVs sold in the US combined.

 

[AZlb5.0]

It’s not a question of whether or not Ford has cameras on the property. Of course they do. The footage on the news was 3rd party footage taken on Ford’s property, not Ford’s video.

I get what you’re saying, my point being, that instead of allowing this to get to the point, where a FOIA was used. Ford should have gotten in front of this. I don’t know if you can agree with me on this. It never looks good, when you find out information, from a different source in this manner. Getting out in front of a piece like this, in my opinion would have been much better. That’s all I’m trying to get at. When you have skeptics out there it just fuels the mistrust.

 

[Gregs24]

I get what you’re saying, my point being, that instead of allowing this to get to the point, where a FOIA was used. Ford should have gotten in front of this. I don’t know if you can agree with me on this. It never looks good, when you find out information, from a different source in this manner. Getting out in front of a piece like this, in my opinion would have been much better. That’s all I’m trying to get at. When you have skeptics out there it just fuels the mistrust.

So an official recall through a public recall system and government agency involvement is too clandestine for you.


Just give up

 

[Gregs24]

All I’ll say to this is that I work as a consultant for the company that is the leading source in the industry for vehicles sales, registration, and forecasting of production and sales data. Our data shows the exact opposite. By a lot. I’ll repeat what I said earlier in this thread and post a chart with the detail. In February, the #1 selling vehicle in the country was the Tesla Model Y. The #10 was Tesla Model 3. PHEVs aren’t even close on the sales charts. Model Y by itself outsells all PHEVs sold in the US combined.

Just because you work in the industry, have access to all the data and can provide evidence is a pretty weak argument really.

It is like trying to have a discussion with a piece of wood, only the wood is more receptive to change and understanding. Hence the reason I blocked the idiot.

 

[Gregs24]

All I’ll say to this is that I work as a consultant for the company that is the leading source in the industry for vehicles sales, registration, and forecasting of production and sales data. Our data shows the exact opposite. By a lot. I’ll repeat what I said earlier in this thread and post a chart with the detail. In February, the #1 selling vehicle in the country was the Tesla Model Y. The #10 was Tesla Model 3. PHEVs aren’t even close on the sales charts. Model Y by itself outsells all PHEVs sold in the US combined.

On a serious note that is quite astounding how EV sales have taken off in the US, despite the rhetorical doom mongers on here saying they couldn't. In the same way EV sales in Norway couldn't possibly exceed 10% of vehicles, then 15%, then 20%, absolutely cannot happen - oh it happened!

 

[martinjlm]

I get what you’re saying, my point being, that instead of allowing this to get to the point, where a FOIA was used. Ford should have gotten in front of this. I don’t know if you can agree with me on this. It never looks good, when you find out information, from a different source in this manner. Getting out in front of a piece like this, in my opinion would have been much better. That’s all I’m trying to get at. When you have skeptics out there it just fuels the mistrust.

They actually did get in front of it. They did everything except show video. We (locals who watch the local news and/or follow the industry) actually learned nothing new from seeing the video except that it looked exactly as they described. Ford came out and said it happened and it was in the Automotive News (auto industry‘s “Wall Street Journal”) almost immediately.

 

[AZlb5.0]

They actually did get in front of it. They did everything except show video. We (locals who watch the local news and/or follow the industry) actually learned nothing new from seeing the video except that it looked exactly as they described. Ford came out and said it happened and it was in the Automotive News (auto industry‘s “Wall Street Journal”) almost immediately.

Thanks for the explanation and update. Much appreciated. As a consumer I would have liked there to be a wider sharing of information.

 

[sk47]

I’m well aware of your position and it is not an uncommon position. What I have been trying to point out is that many of the reservations you have offered have already been dealt with even though you like to consider them as “someday”. For most (not all) of the issues you identify, someday is today. Objectively speaking, I think Burkey has been very transparent in his reasoning. I think you are actively ignoring his main point and emphasizing his minor point.

Hello; As I said earlier, you are a good wordsmith. If I was inclined to really want to believe I could fall for the story as long as i did not think it thru too much. The someday things will be solved are still off in the future.
Range and fast charging are some better than years ago but no where near close to an ICE yet. Just watched a PBS video recorded last night. Second program in a series about climate change. This one was about net zero. Not much new for me. I did learn a bit about iron/air batteries which are still in the prototype stage. Learned about floating wind turbines still in the prototype stage.
The bit I will relate was about a trip the host took in a F-150 Lightning BEV pickup.
Main take away was the long highway trip took twice as long as it would have in an ICE pickup according to the show host. Charging was the culprit. He had many problems getting a new charge. Some chargers he was directed to did not work at all. They were listed on his smart phone but not yet ready for service. Another was cash only and the dude did not carry enough.

One started a charge, so the guy and his passenger went to dinner expecting a full fast charge when they got back. Did not happen. Charging stopped with them getting only a fraction of what was needed. Got enough charge to make it to a slow charger where they sat around and waited for a long time.
Program was NOVA - CHASSING CARBON ZERO. It will be rebroadcast on PBS Friday morning at 5:00 AM, then again Friday at 2:30 pm. Then Sunday April 30 at 8:30 AM. PBS is pro Green and pro EV. They show climate agenda programs most Wednesdays.

So range and charging are not a match for an ICE. What else? How about price? Hybrids and BEV's still cost more than an ICE so that is not a match.

Costs more to fuel (charge) an BEV than an ICE on commercial public chargers so no joy there yet. Average joe on the fifth floor is sure out of luck and will be for some time.

About all those EV sales. The PBS program from last night stated a market share of 5%. If that is the standard then you nailed it. To me it means in the real world 95% of folk are buying ICE, just like our own Burkey.
Here is a thought. With all the incentives. With all the propaganda about save the planet. With all the "NO ICE" sales looming around six years from now. Could it be some folks fear the support for an ICE may go away and might be trying an EV?? Speculation to be sure. However, the EPA is about to put into effect some new punishing rules that will affect ICE vehicles. We all already know of the policies which raised ICE fuel prices. We know the strategic oil reserve has been depleted to historically low levels, that might have some folks spooked maybe?

Guess I could mention that the grid is not ready for all the BEV demand but i will stop here for now.

Someday is now???

 

[K4fxd]

linked the wrong post, @martinjlm
No one is saying they couldn't take off just it is too fast of a roll out.

Yes, I know you are an industry insider. Still this survey done by the University of Chicago’s Energy Policy Institute and the AP-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research, is not one I would expect to be slanted away from BEV's.

 

[K4fxd]

This is anecdotal but everyone I know who has a BEV says they will not buy another, unless it is just a weekend fun car. Too much hassle at this time. I do have one friend who had a tesla burn down his house. This was before we knew about the battery fire hazzard of not being able to put it out.

 

[martinjlm]

Hello; As I said earlier, you are a good wordsmith. If I was inclined to really want to believe I could fall for the story as long as i did not think it thru too much. The someday things will be solved are still off in the future.
Range and fast charging are some better than years ago but no where near close to an ICE yet. Just watched a PBS video recorded last night. Second program in a series about climate change. This one was about net zero. Not much new for me. I did learn a bit about iron/air batteries which are still in the prototype stage. Learned about floating wind turbines still in the prototype stage.

You are right about the range, but there is a twist. ICE cars tend to average 300–450 miles range based on EPA MPG ratings x fuel tank size. The newest EVs have range in the 270 - 320 mile range. Mustangs (since this is a Mustang forum) have range from 277 - 344 miles. The twist is that most EV owners wake up with that amount of range every morning, whereas for ICE vehicles that range is lower and lower everyday until they find a gas station and top off. Refueling habits change drastically with EVs compared to how you and I have grown up refueling our vehicles. We grew up filling our tanks and driving as long and as far as we could within our own comfort level. Then we stopped and filled up and repeated that cycle. In rough times we might get in the habit of just adding $5 here and $10 there, but for the most part, we filled / depleted / filled / depleted.

With EVs that charge at home, you wake up on “F”. You use a fraction of the total range and you top off at home and repeat the process the next day. For long trips most newer EVs can plot you trips such that you do not spend much time at the charger. You don’t run it down to E and when you stop at a charger you only add enough charge to safely get you to your next point with safety margin. In most cases that can be a 10-30 minute stop.

The bit I will relate was about a trip the host took in a F-150 Lightning BEV pickup.
Main take away was the long highway trip took twice as long as it would have in an ICE pickup according to the show host. Charging was the culprit. He had many problems getting a new charge. Some chargers he was directed to did not work at all. They were listed on his smart phone but not yet ready for service. Another was cash only and the dude did not carry enough.

One started a charge, so the guy and his passenger went to dinner expecting a full fast charge when they got back. Did not happen. Charging stopped with them getting only a fraction of what was needed. Got enough charge to make it to a slow charger where they sat around and waited for a long time.
Program was NOVA - CHASSING CARBON ZERO. It will be rebroadcast on PBS Friday morning at 5:00 AM, then again Friday at 2:30 pm. Then Sunday April 30 at 8:30 AM. PBS is pro Green and pro EV. They show climate agenda programs most Wednesdays. .

My biggest concern on a long trip would be quality of the individual chargers. We are seeing a lot more issues with condition of the individual chargers than I myself would be comfortable with.

So range and charging are not a match for an ICE. What else? How about price? Hybrids and BEV's still cost more than an ICE so that is not a match.

Costs more to fuel (charge) an BEV than an ICE on commercial public chargers so no joy there yet. Average joe on the fifth floor is sure out of luck and will be for some time.

Range is no longer an issue. EVs actually have MORE range than they need based on how they are used and refueled. Refueling is complicated, because except for those 1-5 long trips a family may make in a year, refueling an EV is infinitely simpler than an ICE. Park, plug, go to bed. Couldn’t be easier. Actually, it could. Wireless vehicle charging, but that’s another topic. But just like I would expect that most Mustang owners would park the Mustang and use a larger family vehicle to go cross country to grandma’s for thanksgiving, I expect that until people are more comfortable with charging networks, some will park the EV and take the ICE for cross country trips. Or not.

About all those EV sales. The PBS program from last night stated a market share of 5%. If that is the standard then you nailed it. To me it means in the real world 95% of folk are buying ICE, just like our own Burkey.

Ever hear the Wayne Gretzky quote when he was asked why such a small scrawny guy like himself could be the GOAT in a high speed physical sport like hockey? He said something to the effect of “I don’t skate to where the puck is, I skate to where the puck is going to be”. The 5% number you quoted is where the puck was. A snapshot in time. Just a few years ago EV sales were around 3%. Then 4…then 5… For 2022, 5.7% of new vehicles purchased in the US were full electric. The rate of growth of EVs is about 60% year over year. Rate of growth is how you see where the puck will be. The gating issues have been the type of vehicles available, the volume of vehicles available, and the price of vehicles available. All three of those things are improving on pretty much a daily basis. Early on, the only EVs available were weird little science experiments (1st Gen Leaf, Fiat 500e) or luxury sedans (Tesla Model S). The high volume is in vehicle classes in the middle. Those “in the middle” vehicles are rolling out in droves now and the prices for those vehicles are falling in at the high end of ICE prices for similar vehicles. Factor in the fact that buyers no longer have to pay for gas and the total cost of use quickly improves over ICE equivalents.

Here is a thought. With all the incentives. With all the propaganda about save the planet. With all the "NO ICE" sales looming around six years from now. Could it be some folks fear the support for an ICE may go away and might be trying an EV?? Speculation to be sure. However, the EPA is about to put into effect some new punishing rules that will affect ICE vehicles. We all already know of the policies which raised ICE fuel prices. We know the strategic oil reserve has been depleted to historically low levels, that might have some folks spooked maybe?

As you suggest, speculation.

Guess I could mention that the grid is not ready for all the BEV demand but i will stop here for now.

Someday is now???

In total the grid is more than sufficient for the EVs that are coming to market over the next few years. Since components of the grid are locally managed, conditions do vary from locale to locale. The grid is also being continuously upgrade through funding available from the bipartisan infrastructure bill as well as normal maintenance spending. An increasing number of new EV models are coming to market with bi-directional charging which allows the vehicles to put energy back into the grid when needed. There is a report where a bus fleet charged their buses during off-peak hours at low rates then sold energy back to the grid during high usage periods and earned $10,000 per bus over the course of a year. That’s an outlier case for sure, but the point being, different use patterns have different draws on the grid at different time. Ignore the temptation of studying “what if all these 100kWh capacity EVs plug in at the same time?”. It’ll never happen and design a grid to support that would be foolhardy.

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