GM is pulling back on EVs

[sk47]

Canadian Driver Accidentally Buys Hyundai Ioniq 5 With No Fast Charging (msn.com)
Hello; This is a sad story. At first i thought it was that a buyer just did not do their homework. You know, not reading the fine print about charging capacity. Then I read that the fine print is not clear. Seems even tho the base model EV did not have fast charge capacity, I suppose to make it cost less to buy, there were fast charge times on a chart listed for the model.

At the end it is not clear if the company will make things right. Alsxo not clear if this is just a Canada thing.

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[martinjlm]

Canadian Driver Accidentally Buys Hyundai Ioniq 5 With No Fast Charging (msn.com)
Hello; This is a sad story. At first i thought it was that a buyer just did not do their homework. You know, not reading the fine print about charging capacity. Then I read that the fine print is not clear. Seems even tho the base model EV did not have fast charge capacity, I suppose to make it cost less to buy, there were fast charge times on a chart listed for the model.

At the end it is not clear if the company will make things right. Alsxo not clear if this is just a Canada thing.

It was a case of buyer not paying attention. It is also a case of Hyundai not reading the room. A number of the earlier lower priced EVs had DC Fast Charging capability as an option. Leaf, Hyundai Ioniq, Hyundai Kona EV, Bolt EV come to mind. I think Bolt made it standard in its second or third year. Leaf may have also done that. Hyundai should have realized that buyers of larger, longer range EVs expect DC Charging capability and just built it into the price. On the other hand, the buyer should have known he had to check the box to get the option or should have known to look for it on the list of options if buying the car off the lot.

 

[martinjlm]

Annnnnnd….back on topic

GM is ending production of the Bolt EV and Bolt EUV by the end of 2023. I guess that looks like “GM pulling back on EVs”. Except there are three key reasons why it isn’t.

1. The reason they are being dropped is that they are the only two GM EVs that are not on the GM Ultium platform and that do not use GM’s Ultium batteries. They are the last US cars built on GM’s ICE based Gamma platform (Chevy Spark) and they use LG Chem batteries.
2. The Chevrolet Equinox is gearing up for launch. It is larger, has better range, and costs about the same as a fully equipped Bolt EV.
3. The timing for the drop is driven by the timing needed to convert the plant to produce Silverado EV and Sierra EV.

I guess a fourth reason would be that in our forecast we see a new EV coming in in a few years at the same size and lower price class and with higher range. It may or may not be called Bolt but it could be seen as a direct replacement. Normally GM would ride the current vehicle out until they launched the new one, but, as noted in point #3, they need the plant space for bigger, higher volume higher profit vehicles.

 

[sk47]

It was a case of buyer not paying attention. It is also a case of Hyundai not reading the room. A number of the earlier lower priced EVs had DC Fast Charging capability as an option. Leaf, Hyundai Ioniq, Hyundai Kona EV, Bolt EV come to mind. I think Bolt made it standard in its second or third year. Leaf may have also done that. Hyundai should have realized that buyers of larger, longer range EVs expect DC Charging capability and just built it into the price. On the other hand, the buyer should have known he had to check the box to get the option or should have known to look for it on the list of options if buying the car off the lot.

quotes from the link
"The Ioniq 5 Essential lacked a heat pump, a battery heater, and the ability to fast charge—enough trimmed fat to drop the price, which would make higher trims eligible for Canada's iZEV credit. And after reviewing the archived spec sheet that was once present on Hyundai Canada's website, it became clear why some people on the forum were confused. Hyundai's original marketing material for the Ioniq 5 line included charge times for SAE Combo (also known as CCS) charging."

"Hyundai outlines its various trims and differences on a product card. A spokesperson for Hyundai Canada told The Drive that the trim features and specifications are "clearly outlined" on the product card, and are "used as the primary source of reference in dealerships for both customers and dealership staff." The product card indicates that the Ioniq 5 Preferred, which is the next-most base trim, includes "EV Ultra Fast Charger," but doesn't explicitly state that the Essential trim could not make use of a CCS charger. This ambiguity likely caused some confusion, especially within the online forums."

" Hyundai's original marketing material listed CCS fast charging times for the Essential trim "

" Now, we get it. Compliance cars shouldn't have to be a thing and OEMs gaming the system in order to get funding is muddy water. At the end of the day, only the consumer is suffering here, and that's not a great way to experience EVs for the first time. But Hyundai and the dealer should have made it more clear for this owner. It seems like everyone is a little bit at fault here. "


Hello; As for us all you get to present your take on these things. I do not see it as a buyer beware only event. I disagree with your assessment. Looks like we will have to be very careful if shopping for an EV. They are very expensive to start with so it makes sense to shop for a less expensive model. I am old enough to have known of cars being sold without a heater from a dealer. An uncle from Florida had one. He only visited KY during the summer.

Maybe 15 to 20 years ago a neighbor bought a new truck during the winter only to find out the next spring it did not have AC. He just expected it to have the AC and did not check. That was his fault. I was in my middle thirties before i owned a vehicle with an AC. It was not so common as it is now.

 

[sk47]

Annnnnnd….back on topic

GM is ending production of the Bolt EV and Bolt EUV by the end of 2023. I guess that looks like “GM pulling back on EVs”. Except there are three key reasons why it isn’t.

1. The reason they are being dropped is that they are the only two GM EVs that are not on the GM Ultium platform and that do not use GM’s Ultium batteries. They are the last US cars built on GM’s ICE based Gamma platform (Chevy Spark) and they use LG Chem batteries.
2. The Chevrolet Equinox is gearing up for launch. It is larger, has better range, and costs about the same as a fully equipped Bolt EV.
3. The timing for the drop is driven by the timing needed to convert the plant to produce Silverado EV and Sierra EV.

I guess a fourth reason would be that in our forecast we see a new EV coming in in a few years at the same size and lower price class and with higher range. It may or may not be called Bolt but it could be seen as a direct replacement. Normally GM would ride the current vehicle out until they launched the new one, but, as noted in point #3, they need the plant space for bigger, higher volume higher profit vehicles.

Hello; Not much spin in this take. I get and understand model updates. I do have a question about the LG chem batteries. let me preface the question a bit. had a neighbor a couple years ago with an older Ford Hybrid small SUV. The SUV was only running on the ICE engine at the time because the charging system for the hybrid battery was down. She had it in the Ford shop and was told the parts were just not available any more. A common failure part so that all the OEM spare parts were already used up and no aftermarket parts.
She had a useable vehicle with the ICE. Some penalty as it was dragging around the weight of a useless battery and electric motor, but it got her to her classes at the college.
My question is about obsolescence. I have seen my personal computers become useless every few years and wonder if BEV's will follow suit. Are todays BEV's likely to be outdated in a few years? By that I ask if they will become throw away vehicles as new battery and electronics packages come along?
I can have an ICE engine rebuilt after many years of use. I question if the BEV's will be "rebuildable" as they age.

 

[RagmopInKona]

Annnnnnd….back on topic

GM is ending production of the Bolt EV and Bolt EUV by the end of 2023. I guess that looks like “GM pulling back on EVs”. Except there are three key reasons why it isn’t.

1. The reason they are being dropped is that they are the only two GM EVs that are not on the GM Ultium platform and that do not use GM’s Ultium batteries. They are the last US cars built on GM’s ICE based Gamma platform (Chevy Spark) and they use LG Chem batteries.
2. The Chevrolet Equinox is gearing up for launch. It is larger, has better range, and costs about the same as a fully equipped Bolt EV.
3. The timing for the drop is driven by the timing needed to convert the plant to produce Silverado EV and Sierra EV.

I guess a fourth reason would be that in our forecast we see a new EV coming in in a few years at the same size and lower price class and with higher range. It may or may not be called Bolt but it could be seen as a direct replacement. Normally GM would ride the current vehicle out until they launched the new one, but, as noted in point #3, they need the plant space for bigger, higher volume higher profit vehicles.

At a time that interest rates are crashing the car market.
Yes yes, lets focus on high cost vehicles.
It's going to be the early 70's all over again, with gm getting eaten alive with the wrong vehicles for the time.

 

[martinjlm]

Hello; Not much spin in this take. I get and understand model updates. I do have a question about the LG chem batteries. let me preface the question a bit. had a neighbor a couple years ago with an older Ford Hybrid small SUV. The SUV was only running on the ICE engine at the time because the charging system for the hybrid battery was down. She had it in the Ford shop and was told the parts were just not available any more. A common failure part so that all the OEM spare parts were already used up and no aftermarket parts.
She had a useable vehicle with the ICE. Some penalty as it was dragging around the weight of a useless battery and electric motor, but it got her to her classes at the college.
My question is about obsolescence. I have seen my personal computers become useless every few years and wonder if BEV's will follow suit. Are todays BEV's likely to be outdated in a few years? By that I ask if they will become throw away vehicles as new battery and electronics packages come along?
I can have an ICE engine rebuilt after many years of use. I question if the BEV's will be "rebuildable" as they age.

What makes the highlighted parts interesting is that by law, all parts of the electric propulsion system on any hybrid or EV has to be warranted by the manufacturer for a minimum of 8 years, 100,000 miles. The dealer telling your neighbor that they can’t get the part any more is probably best translated as they don’t want to go through whatever the process is for getting the part. Your neighbor should go to another dealer and/or contact Ford Customer Service.

 

[AZlb5.0]

I guess a fourth reason would be that in our forecast we see a new EV coming in in a few years at the same size and lower price class and with higher range. It may or may not be called Bolt but it could be seen as a direct replacement. Normally GM would ride the current vehicle out until they launched the new one, but, as noted in point #3, they need the plant space for bigger, higher volume higher profit vehicles.

This will make EVs more appealable to let’s say folks like myself. The EVs with the highest ranges are those in the 6 figure category.

 

[Gregs24]

What makes the highlighted parts interesting is that by law, all parts of the electric propulsion system on any hybrid or EV has to be warranted by the manufacturer for a minimum of 8 years, 100,000 miles. The dealer telling your neighbor that they can’t get the part any more is probably best translated as they don’t want to go through whatever the process is for getting the part. Your neighbor should go to another dealer and/or contact Ford Customer Service.

Again he came out with all that guff a while ago - like a stuck record. I don't think it was his neighbour last time, he forgets stuff quite a lot!

Actually battery repair companies are popping up now that can repair individual cells etc. Supply and demand.

 

[Gregs24]

This will make EVs more appealable to let’s say folks like myself. The EVs with the highest ranges are those in the 6 figure category.

Times are changing fast, prices are falling fast

VW ID7 with a 435 mile range starting at £50k.

MG4 range just under 300 miles for £26k

Lots of Chinese makes coming on the market at very competitive prices. Ignore them at your peril!


Even more interesting far more rapid charging on the way

Exclusive: UK firm's radical tech can charge an EV in 10 minutes | Autocar

 

[sk47]

What makes the highlighted parts interesting is that by law, all parts of the electric propulsion system on any hybrid or EV has to be warranted by the manufacturer for a minimum of 8 years, 100,000 miles. The dealer telling your neighbor that they can’t get the part any more is probably best translated as they don’t want to go through whatever the process is for getting the part. Your neighbor should go to another dealer and/or contact Ford Customer Service.

Hello; The neighbors hybrid SUV was out of warranty. Yes, they do get old. May have been over the miles but I did not ask.
I see Gregs had to chime in with a putdown or two as is his norm. Then mistakenly threw up a post about batteries starting to be repaired. It was the regeneration system which had a faulty part not necessarily the battery.

Interesting thing being neither of you addressed the question at all. That being about the tech of the batteries and the tech of the supporting electronic control systems of today becoming outdated to the point of an EV becoming a throw away when the systems fail out of warranty.
These vehicles cannot over time be owned by only those with deep pockets who can afford to simply throw away an older vehicle and get a new one.

"Hello; I do have a question about the LG chem batteries. Are todays BEV's likely to be outdated in a few years? By that I ask if they will become throw away vehicles as new battery and electronics packages come along?
I can have an ICE engine rebuilt after many years of use. I question if the BEV's will be "rebuildable" as they age. "

 

[martinjlm]

Hello; The neighbors hybrid SUV was out of warranty. Yes, they do get old. May have been over the miles but I did not ask.
I see Gregs had to chime in with a putdown or two as is his norm. Then mistakenly threw up a post about batteries starting to be repaired. It was the regeneration system which had a faulty part not necessarily the battery.

Interesting thing being neither of you addressed the question at all. That being about the tech of the batteries and the tech of the supporting electronic control systems of today becoming outdated to the point of an EV becoming a throw away when the systems fail out of warranty.
These vehicles cannot over time be owned by only those with deep pockets who can afford to simply throw away an older vehicle and get a new one.

"Hello; I do have a question about the LG chem batteries. Are todays BEV's likely to be outdated in a few years? By that I ask if they will become throw away vehicles as new battery and electronics packages come along?
I can have an ICE engine rebuilt after many years of use. I question if the BEV's will be "rebuildable" as they age. "

That would not explain the parts unavailable piece. Unless the last vehicle using that part was built in 2015 Ford still has to have the part available to cover potential warranty claims. Which means it also is available for customer pay claims. Story doesn’t add up.

I think most would agree that both Gregs24 and I addressed the larger issue. You may not agree with the answer(s) but that doesn’t make it any less true.

• Batteries, electric motors, everything that makes electric cars electric are required to be warranted for 8 years / 100,000 miles. That’s longer than the warranties on the rest of the car.
• The battery and other electric components are the center of growing remanufacturing industries. Just like engines. And transmissions. And starters, and torque converters and numerous other car parts. Because…they’re car parts.

 

[sk47]

That would not explain the parts unavailable piece. Unless the last vehicle using that part was built in 2015 Ford still has to have the part available to cover potential warranty claims. Which means it also is available for customer pay claims. Story doesn’t add up.

I think most would agree that both Gregs24 and I addressed the larger issue. You may not agree with the answer(s) but that doesn’t make it any less true.

• Batteries, electric motors, everything that makes electric cars electric are required to be warranted for 8 years / 100,000 miles. That’s longer than the warranties on the rest of the car.
• The battery and other electric components are the center of growing remanufacturing industries. Just like engines. And transmissions. And starters, and torque converters and numerous other car parts. Because…they’re car parts.

Hello; Not sure what the year of the Ford hybrid was but looked up some Ford hybrid SUV's. I am pretty sure it was an Escape. Pictures match closely to the SUV. What i found is they were first built in 2004. That is 19 years ago now and she was my neighbor for two years until about this time last spring when she finished her school term. So, the vehicle could have been 17 or more years old when she lived close by. Story adds up just fine.

You begin you reply much like Burkey with diversion sorts of answers that may be correct for a different question, but not for the question asked. It is OK to say you do not know if such is the case. Yeah, I get that 8 years and 100,000 miles is more than a standard 36/36 bumper to bumper warranty. We all get that.
A lot of folks put a lot more than 100 K on a vehicle and I see a lot of plus 8 year old vehicles on the road. I also get that EV's are more tech loaded than other types of cars.
I get that battery development is a big deal and ongoing. In fact, better batteries (range & quick charge) coming is one of the "someday" promises often touted on this thread.
The just wait and batteries will be so much better talk. That implies batteries and their operating systems today are very likely to be super ceded with new stuff. I figure that like my neighbor with an early hybrid there will not be support when the older tech has been replaced with new tech.
I asked a specific question. If you do not know, you do not know.

 

[martinjlm]

…. That implies batteries and their operating systems today are very likely to be super ceded with new stuff. I figure that like my neighbor with an early hybrid there will not be support when the older tech has been replaced with new tech.
I asked a specific question. If you do not know, you do not know.

After over 40 years in the auto industry, directly involved in engineering, manufacturing, and service planning for parts as small as the smallest pinion gear in an automatic transmission to the biggest engine block in the GM portfolio there are some things I actually do know. One of those things is that the post warranty availability of any specific part of an electric vehicle is affected less by whether or not the vehicle is electric than it is about the specific planning that goes into managing the vehicle’s end of production. I ended my prior post with the phrase “Because…they’re car parts”. That’s the point. How long there are parts available is a function of how well the automaker establishes plans to make them available.

I’m in a never ending process of retro-modding a 1991 Toyota. I am just as surprised about the parts that I can still find as I am about the parts that I can no longer find. But then the car is 32 years old.

 

[kz]

How about Shelby American now selling (EU only interestingly) their version of Mach E ? No comments ? No msn.com article just yet that would be (half) appropriate to use as a comment ?

Nothing is sacred these days, lol. Doesn't look like they're pulling back on the EVs...

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