Koni Active Shocks

[wtcnbrwndo4u]

So, I'm actually having a much better experience as well. Reminder that I drive a MB E550 coupe, but after I moved into the mountains (where the roads are surprisingly better), I haven't had nearly as many bottom outs. Granted, I've driven the vehicle a grand total of three times since, but I can count my scrapes on a single hand now instead of losing count.

Denver city roads and even certain parts of interstates are horrifically graded and uneven AF.

I'm still planning to swap out to Eibach bumpstops and replace the springs with some stiffer H&R springs I have on hand.

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[TeeLew]

Didn’t see this post somehow but the Bilsteins ride infinitely better than the Koni Actives.

...Said everyone who ever compared the two. I just don't understand the attraction to any Koni product.

 

[Norm Peterson]

...Said everyone who ever compared the two. I just don't understand the attraction to any Koni product.

Adjustability.

Without that, there isn't much reason.

Making dampers either position-sensitive or frequency-sensitive can probably work well enough when everything in the system agrees with what the dampers were tuned for. But change anything that's built into that tuning and all bets might be off.


Norm

 

[shogun32]

Adjustability.

WIthout that, there isn't much reason.

you can get adjustability for ~same price (eg. Fortune Auto, or BC Racing). Some are done badly sure, but I wouldn't put Koni in the 'good' column either.

 

[Norm Peterson]

you can get adjustability for ~same price (eg. Fortune Auto, or BC Racing). Some are done badly sure, but I wouldn't put Koni in the 'good' column either.

What about adjustability in conventional shocks and struts?

I'm far from convinced that coilovers are a good choice for a car that sees more than some minimal number of street miles.


Norm

 

[shogun32]

coilover is just a means of mounting the spring. The guts of a traditional shock and a coil-over configuration can be (are) identical. The key 'problem' with most coil-overs is that the choices made are in the interests of 'looks' and as such they made no provision for lowering the car less than 1". For example Fortune Auto could have built their 5x0-series shock with a shock body (or shaft) 30mm longer so that ride height could have been from stock to 2" drop. It's a $110/corner charge by the way on a retrofit order. If you order it that way out of the gate I doubt there is a surcharge or it's rather more modest.

Aside from the 3-5,000 price point gear, the coil-over suppliers in the ~1-2k bracket simply do not know how to do damping correctly.

The absolute huge win for coil-overs (depending on design) is that ride height is completely divorced from spring preload or spring choice at all. With a traditional setup you have to pick from short-wound springs of higher rate to get static sag target. On a coil over I can pick the spring rate I want with only the minimal spring preload and then move the shock body in it's threaded mount to precisely dial in height.

 

[TeeLew]

Adjustability.

Without that, there isn't much reason.

Making dampers either position-sensitive or frequency-sensitive can probably work well enough when everything in the system agrees with what the dampers were tuned for. But change anything that's built into that tuning and all bets might be off.

Norm

What use is Koni adjustability if all of the settings are functionally inferior to the baseline Bilstein? I suppose it can be used to shift balance one direction or the other, but I'd much rather have fewer balance tuning options and a better base package.

I have the same opinion concerning budget coil-over setups. How a damper makes its force is every bit as important as the magnitude of that force. At the very least, Bilstein has the fluid dynamics side of the game addressed. They're not my high-end damper of choice, but in the $1k range, I don't see anyone better.

 

[GT 550]

Making dampers either position-sensitive or frequency-sensitive can probably work well enough when everything in the system agrees with what the dampers were tuned for. But change anything that's built into that tuning and all bets might be off.

Hi Norm are you referring to the Koni Adaptives specifically? If so isn't that the challenge with all non-adjustables? Apologies if I misread.

I have the same opinion concerning budget coil-over setups.

I've yet to see a budget adjustable coilover that has anything like consistent adjustment or valving. Some of the stuff I saw on a shock dyno was just horrible.

I just don't understand the attraction to any Koni product.

I'm attracted to mine because they work, don't make noise, didn't break the bank, and suit their intended use which is street and rough roads while not compromising handling within the envelope they're used.

To be fair the Bilsteins we get here have sport oriented valving and while they're an excellent damper would probably not ride as well.

 

[Norm Peterson]

What use is Koni adjustability if all of the settings are functionally inferior to the baseline Bilstein? I suppose it can be used to shift balance one direction or the other, but I'd much rather have fewer balance tuning options and a better base package.

And we can know that a baseline Bilstein valving is inherently superior to any Koni yellow setting . . . how?

I have nothing against non-adjustable Bilstiens at least in certain applications. Hell, I had very good experience with a set of Bils on a different car (that featured valving that wasn't exactly off-the-shelf).

Adding only rebound damping adjustability doesn't add that much tuning complexity and can be useful in tuning transitional handling. On a good day I can feel the differences that only a quarter of a turn makes.


Norm

 

[shogun32]

Adding only rebound damping adjustability doesn't add that much tuning complexity and can be useful in tuning transitional handling. On a good day I can feel the differences that only a quarter of a turn makes.

I have the Steeda Pro-action (modified Koni) and 1/4 turn is very much discernable, even arguably 1/8. A properly valved compression stack should IMO have a big knee in the curve between 1-2 in/sec with an almost horizontal (weakly linear) blow-off after that.

 

[GT 550]

Who makes such a unit and how much are they?

 

[Norm Peterson]

Norm Peterson said:
Making dampers either position-sensitive or frequency-sensitive can probably work well enough when everything in the system agrees with what the dampers were tuned for. But change anything that's built into that tuning and all bets might be off.

Hi Norm are you referring to the Koni Adaptives specifically? If so isn't that the challenge with all non-adjustables? Apologies if I misread.

As a general thing, damping that's made to vary based on anything other than damper piston speed has more ways of getting it wrong than a purely velocity-sensitive damper would.

Frequency-sensitive damping sounds an awful lot like the Ricor inertia-valve shocks that were made available for cars for a few years under the Edelbrock IAS label. They've since been discontinued, maybe about ten years ago. IIRC, IAS stood for Inertia Active System and involved an inertia valve mechanism that could separate upward inertial body movement (typically your 1 - 3 Hz stuff) from downward unsprung mass movement (more like 6 - 10 Hz because the weight of unsprung masses is roughly an order of magnitude smaller than your car's [sprung] corner weight).


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

I found this. While there aren't any scales or units, it's maybe enough to see what they're trying to accomplish. Something to keep in mind is that the slope of the damping curves also matters (it's an indication of how much damper force increase you get to a change in piston velocity - for ride comfort you really want small slopes, which is what conventional dampers' blowoff valves seek to accomplish).

Norm

 

[shogun32]

I found this. While there aren't any scales or units, it's maybe enough to see what they're trying to accomplish. Something to keep in mind is that the slope of the damping curves also matters (it's an indication of how much damper force increase you get to a change in piston velocity - for ride comfort you really want small slopes, which is what conventional dampers' blowoff valves seek to accomplish).

Norm

I didn't mind the Koni Active's compression side of the damping. It was the rebound side that was much too loose and it was not able to be adjusted which was unfortunate. I have my set still sitting on the shelf waiting a dyno run.

 

[TeeLew]

All dampers have a component of frequency dependence. It's also called hysteresis. It's usually minimized, but I can see how there could be benefits. The trick would be to actually having it vary in the way you want it. Damper forces generally vary with respect to shaft speed.

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