Fossil Fuels are Not the Enemy

[Strokerswild]

So can I keep pouring my old engine oil in the ground or no?

Science.

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[HoosierDaddy]

How about we start with getting rid of Biden and HIS toxic dependent relationship with China?

WHAT? Biden has aggressively protected the jobs of the trucking, railroad industries by cancelling the pipeline that would have meant those industries would no longer be needed to haul all the dino stuff the pipeline would have efficiently and safely moved. Not to mention the jobs of people who clean up after the rail and truck accidents.

 

[Jimmy Dean]

WHAT? Biden has aggressively protected the jobs of the trucking, railroad industries by cancelling the pipeline that would have meant those industries would no longer be needed to haul all the dino stuff the pipeline would have efficiently and safely moved. Not to mention the jobs of people who clean up after the rail and truck accidents.

not trucking, just rail. Namely BNSF, the largest rail shipper of petroleum. Owned by Berkshire Hathaway, owned by W. Buffet.

 

[shogun32]

Biden has aggressively protected the jobs of the trucking, railroad industries by cancelling the pipeline that would have meant those industries would no longer be needed to haul all the dino stuff ... Not to mention the jobs of people who clean up after the rail and truck accidents.

never gets old

 

[Jmtoast]

Science.

I would invest in Skiing equipment suppliers. I figure the north will have bunch of new little bunny hills built on top of mounds of EV batteries. How Michigan rolls at least. Dump gets too big turn it into a Ski resort.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

never gets old

Don't let the prez see that. I sent him a bushel of cherries on inauguration day.

 

[shogun32]

Dump gets too big turn it into a Ski resort.

or hand battery packs out to the poor for heat. Take a knife and puncture the sack of chemicals and bask in the thermal radiation of a runaway oxidation. Assuming you don't also burn your shack down with it for an extra dollop of warmth.

 

[Matti777]

not trucking, just rail. Namely BNSF, the largest rail shipper of petroleum. Owned by Berkshire Hathaway, owned by W. Buffet.

Yep. Every decision is based on either money or power although up here getting a gold star from other world leaders seems to be important. Science just complicates the issue. Call me cynical.

 

[MIDLYFE]

Hello; Good informative post. God link to point out real world issues.
To me a thing left out of the save the planet with electric cars, ban fossil fuels and have clean energy is the sort of life style we will have to endure. A "do without" sort of change in lifestyle. So many estimates of how the grid will not be able to keep up with electricity demand after these all electric rules are in place. Well if the electricity is not there you do without some things run by electricity.
I can picture folks sitting around in the house with no TV or other stuff we take for granted so the reduced amount of electricity can keep them from being too cold in the winter. In the summer I can picture how few will be able to run AC all the time.
Sure my predictions are unfounded so far, but not out of the question.

If current trends continue government monitored thermostats could be in our future.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

If current trends continue government monitored thermostats could be in our future.

They can have my thermostat when they pry it from my whatever-temperature-I-want hands.

 

[Stage_3]

Regular was $1.60 in the final days of the previous administration, now it's $1.90. It gets even more depressing when you talk about premium prices.

Case in point,...........
An older guy that I work with, gassed up his nice Mercedes Benz bi-turbo car with 93 grade last weekend. He paid $3.36 a gallon!

Good going 'Sleepy' Joe and 'Heels Up' Harris!
Absolutely stupid.

 

[Qcman17]

I have my doubts about infrastructure capability when it comes to EVs but I guess we will see. Firstly, we are a bunch of enthusiasts on a car forum and I suspect we represent a pretty small segment of society that are actually all that concerned about seeing fossil fuels become less available or our mighty beast replaced by mindless EV's.

When I look at people as part of my son's generation (he is 29) I see a real disinterest in anything relating to automobiles. So I think its going to happen as cars continue towards utility and away from owner enjoyment. I also think we are going to see a pretty big shift towards more people continuing to work from home due to what Covid has taught us.

We've learned it can be done quite effectively and the need for expensive office infrastructure, real estate etc. is going to be reduced in my view. If that happens the amount of people commuting daily could be reduced a lot- hard to say how much. I'm saying this as it's something I foresee but I personally don't look forward to.

 

[sk47]

I have my doubts about infrastructure capability when it comes to EVs but I guess we will see. Firstly, we are a bunch of enthusiasts on a car forum and I suspect we represent a pretty small segment of society that are actually all that concerned about seeing fossil fuels become less available or our mighty beast replaced by mindless EV's.

When I look at people as part of my son's generation (he is 29) I see a real disinterest in anything relating to automobiles. So I think its going to happen as cars continue towards utility and away from owner enjoyment. I also think we are going to see a pretty big shift towards more people continuing to work from home due to what Covid has taught us.

We've learned it can be done quite effectively and the need for expensive office infrastructure, real estate etc. is going to be reduced in my view. If that happens the amount of people commuting daily could be reduced a lot- hard to say how much. I'm saying this as it's something I foresee but I personally don't look forward to.

Hello; Fair enough for the limited numbers who buy pony cars. Among the changes will be problems for the non-enthusiasts right along with those like us. In another thread on this site about student loan forgiveness the plight of the ordinary working person is often cited. Things such as a large number cannot come up with a few hundred dollars for an emergency.

One thing we currently know is EV's or hybrids do cost a lot more that an economy ICE vehicle. How many of those non-enthusiasts will be able to buy an EV? They may be willing to and may not much care what powers the vehicle they drive.

A new thought just struck me. Ford is dropping the small more affordable ICE vehicles all together. May be that the other manufactures will do the same sort of thing. If there are no modestly priced ICE around to buy, what choice will we have?
For some reason the CASH For CLUNKERS program comes to mind. That program pushed up the price of many used vehicles and put an extra hurt onto financially strapped folks. Near as I could tell those in power were quite pleased with themselves. They got some vehicles which did not get great MPG's off the road. They then added regulations, weight and expensive tech to new vehicles which not only adds cost to each one but also adds weight so now they actually get leas MPG than some small cars I owned in the 70's and 80's. Watch Motor Week to find few get over 30 MPG anymore.

 

[Qcman17]

Hello; Fair enough for the limited numbers who buy pony cars. Among the changes will be problems for the non-enthusiasts right along with those like us. In another thread on this site about student loan forgiveness the plight of the ordinary working person is often cited. Things such as a large number cannot come up with a few hundred dollars for an emergency.

One thing we currently know is EV's or hybrids do cost a lot more that an economy ICE vehicle. How many of those non-enthusiasts will be able to buy an EV? They may be willing to and may not much care what powers the vehicle they drive.

A new thought just struck me. Ford is dropping the small more affordable ICE vehicles all together. May be that the other manufactures will do the same sort of thing. If there are no modestly priced ICE around to buy, what choice will we have?
For some reason the CASH For CLUNKERS program comes to mind. That program pushed up the price of many used vehicles and put an extra hurt onto financially strapped folks. Near as I could tell those in power were quite pleased with themselves. They got some vehicles which did not get great MPG's off the road. They then added regulations, weight and expensive tech to new vehicles which not only adds cost to each one but also adds weight so now they actually get leas MPG than some small cars I owned in the 70's and 80's. Watch Motor Week to find few get over 30 MPG anymore.

Well I think those folks who can't afford them may just wind up skipping vehicle ownership in the future especially if owning a vehicle isn't that important to them or purchase the lower end ones. As EV's continue to become more mainstream I expect they will become cheaper to build as everything does with advancing technology. And ICE's may be penalized in terms of added carbon taxes or gas guzzler taxes that exist on some cars currently like say a ZL-1 Camaro.

I also think people struggling financially have bigger worries than deciding to go ICE or EV. They can barely afford either in my mind. I don't say that to be harsh just that it's an indication of living beyond ones means or at least at the bleeding edge of it.

And if say Ford only builds upper end ICEs then it would in theory still satisfy ICE enthusiasts assuming they (we) are willing to pay to play. It would be great if something good and ICE continued to be available for us rumble heads

 

[sk47]

Well I think those folks who can't afford them may just wind up skipping vehicle ownership in the future especially if owning a vehicle isn't that important to them or purchase the lower end ones. As EV's continue to become more mainstream I expect they will become cheaper to build as everything does with advancing technology. And ICE's may be penalized in terms of added carbon taxes or gas guzzler taxes that exist on some cars currently like say a ZL-1 Camaro.

I also think people struggling financially have bigger worries than deciding to go ICE or EV. They can barely afford either in my mind. I don't say that to be harsh just that it's an indication of living beyond ones means or at least at the bleeding edge of it.

And if say Ford only builds upper end ICEs then it would in theory still satisfy ICE enthusiasts assuming they (we) are willing to pay to play. It would be great if something good and ICE continued to be available for us rumble heads

Hello; I still cannot do quotes of partial bits of posts, so will address the bold portions of your post.
First there could be two categories of those who give up ownership of vehicles. Probably already happens to a degree. First sort might be those who do not really need a vehicle. More likely those living in one of the major cities where transportation alternatives exist. So having a vehicle is not so much of a need.

The other sort may be those who need a vehicle to get around but cannot afford one. In my rural area such could be the case. No subways or mass transit around here. That they might buy the cheaper vehicles is already the case among many of the people I know. I can see at least two avenues for these folks.
One case could be another government program such as the CASH FOR CLUNKERS. That program was designed to promote an agenda a decade or so ago. The use taxpayer dollars to artificially get rid of otherwise decent running vehicles just because they might pollute more than newer made vehicles. The government paid way more than the going rate for the used vehicles so people cashed in on the deal. The idea appealed to those in power in what might be called a "virtue signal" sort of way in todays terms. A big impact was to those who could not afford a newer vehicle and suddenly the used car market had much less available so the price of a used vehicle went way up.
A sad bit was the scams that took place. Old vehicle that had sat in yards or on river banks for decades in some cases were winched out and turned in for the government cash. How did vehicle which had not run in years take polluters off the road? The other thing was pouring sand into the gas tank or engine block of a decently running vehicle and so ruin them.



expect they will become cheaper to build
Another thing that might happen is some technological advance which will make production of EV's much less costly overall. That sort of thing could happen. I guess there would need to be two such tech advances, the other for increased capacity to produce electric power on the grid. Maybe a third to make the grid updated to handle the increased demand. This scenario is possible I suppose. A potential problem appears to be the current decisions being made by the vehicle manufactures and state governments who are setting artificial deadlines based on the tech we currently have.


ICE's may be penalized in terms of added carbon taxes or gas guzzler taxes that exist on some cars currently like say a ZL-1 Camaro.
That penalties will be added to ICE vehicles seems most likely judging by things already happening. Stopping pipelines and stopping oil removal on federal land likely just a start. Already gas is up over 20 cents a gallon since November around me. For a couple of years at least where I live those with such agendas will have the power to do what they will.
So yes I see the ownership of an ICE being burdened with penalties. Only restrictions might be that being too aggressive will hurt some of their own base. One thing is the penalties likely will not be only on hot rods. We shall see.

"I don't say that to be harsh just that it's an indication of living beyond ones means or at least at the bleeding edge of it."
Hello; Not sure what to make of this comment. Such is the way of life for so many. Credit card debt is at record levels is my understanding. That some large number of people cannot come up with a few hundred dollars for an emergency is also known. Living paycheck to paycheck is more common than not I suspect. Sure they have bigger worries but if a vehicle is necessary to get to work that need is not one they can dismiss.

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