2021 GT500: Manual Trans Option?

[Classic Lover]

Why can’t we just let it go? A DCT, an automatic and a manual all have something that the others don’t have that makes it desirable to people. If you want the best road course performance go dct, best drag strip go auto, most fun and most connected to the car drive manual. Of course that isn’t the same for everyone but what is this even about? Some people just want shift there own gears and have fun, some people want the best performance you can’t have everything in one package.

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[Norm Peterson]

It is generally understood that the essential portion of an automatic transmission is a torque converter.

That may be the popular understanding, but it's wrong. Flat-out wrong.

That's not the issue. The issue IS about how the chosen gear is selected. If this can happen without direct driver command, your transmission is automated . . . which by definition makes it automatic-capable (i.e. automatic).

I could make a case for the much faster-than-human shifting capability of a DCT also being more than enough to define a DCT as being automated (the human driver sure isn't keeping up with it). That would cover all of its shifting, including all of the manually commanded shifts.

It's time for those who keep insisting that a DCT isn't an automatic to lose their prejudice against the term 'automatic' as applied to transmissions. Trust me, I have some understanding of how a DCT operates mechanically.


Norm

 

[Tomster]

Why can’t we just let it go? A DCT, an automatic and a manual all have something that the others don’t have that makes it desirable to people. If you want the best road course performance go dct, best drag strip go auto, most fun and most connected to the car drive manual. Of course that isn’t the same for everyone but what is this even about? Some people just want shift there own gears and have fun, some people want the best performance you can’t have everything in one package.

Its a topic of discussion, that's all. When it gets ugly, the mods will step in. I think for the most part people are being respectful and despite the way it seems, an exchange of information is occurring.

We don't all have to agree.

As for a discussion in this thread with a certain member, there is an unpleasant history. Don't let those small sidetracks get in the way of an otherwise decent discussion.

I would like to hear our resident expert's opinion of the mechanical attributes of the DCT. @Epiphany did a few very good articles on the DCT from inception to implementation. I am without a doubt happy that Ford decided to go the DCT route. It makes the GT500 a very special car at this price point.

 

[Tomster]

That may be the popular understanding, but it's wrong. Flat-out wrong.

That's not the issue. The issue IS about how the chosen gear is selected. If this can happen without direct driver command, your transmission is automated . . . which by definition makes it automatic-capable (i.e. automatic).

I could make a case for the much faster-than-human shifting capability of a DCT also being more than enough to define a DCT as being automated (the human driver sure isn't keeping up with it). That would cover all of its shifting, including all of the manually commanded shifts.

It's time for those who keep insisting that a DCT isn't an automatic to lose their prejudice against the term 'automatic' as applied to transmissions. Trust me, I have some understanding of how a DCT operates mechanically.


Norm

Even tremec disagrees.

The Differences Between a DCT and a Traditional Automatic Transmission | TREMEC Blog: Get Connected (tremec-blog.com)

 

[Norm Peterson]

Right out of the GT500 owners manual supplement

You still don't get it. It's not about the mechanical bits.

Yes, it has similarities to a conventional transmission.

But the automatic shifting capability lands it solidly in the realm of automatic transmissions.

But you don't have to take my word for it. Just look at page 1 of that same GT500 owner manual supplement. Where you'll see that Ford clearly identifies it as being an automatic transmission and that there is no other choice.

Norm

 

[Tomster]

You still don't get it. It's not about the mechanical bits.

Yes, it has similarities to a conventional transmission.

But the automatic shifting capability lands it solidly in the realm of automatic transmissions.

But you don't have to take my word for it. Just look at page 1 of that same GT500 owner manual supplement. Where you'll see that Ford clearly identifies it as being an automatic transmission and that there is no other choice.

Norm

And then they contradict themselves with that other blurb I quoted. I think we can agree, the owners supplement isn't a very technical document. As you can see, Ford dumbs it down to the lowest common denominator.

And Tremec's position on the matter?

Tremec, the manufacturer, clearly differentiates between the two in the article I posted above.

 

[Classic Lover]

It’s an automatic no doubt about it.
the trans changes gears automatically without the driver doing anything except pushing the gas pedal.

its not a conventional auto but it’s still an auto.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Blows my mind how these people take the time to troll the GT500 forum and they have never even driven the car let alone own one, lol. Classic case of sour grapes. Oh well, sucks to be a broke-ass.

No sour grapes here. I could probably put a fully paid-for GT500 in my driveway before the end of the year if I really wanted to. It wouldn't be a financially wise thing to do, but I could.

It's a shame that Ford didn't at least offer a Magnum XL option for this car - a possible MT option for the GT500 being what this topic was supposed to be about rather than denial that automation within its DCT makes it a kind of automatic.


Norm

 

[dpAtlanta]

It’s an automatic no doubt about it.
the trans changes gears automatically without the driver doing anything except pushing the gas pedal.

Question: Does the GT500 have a "manual" option like my Porsche PDK has?

If it does, then I would almost consider the DCT to be a hybrid trans like my PDK.
If I select "manual" in my Cayman with the PDK, it will NOT shift by just pressing the gas pedal... it will go all the way to redline... just like my GT350 with 3 pedals. In "manual" with the dual clutch PDK, you have to select the gears with your hands manually.

 

[Tomster]

Question: Does the GT500 have a "manual" option like my Porsche PDK has?

If it does, then I would almost consider the DCT to be a hybrid trans like my PDK.
If I select "manual" in my Cayman with the PDK, it will NOT shift by just pressing the gas pedal... it will go all the way to redline... just like my GT350 with 3 pedals. In manual you have to select the gears with your hands manually.

Yes, it does. Hold the pedal to the floor in manual mode and it will hit redline. The fuel cutoff will kick in to save the engine and the trans, but it will not shift to the next gear.

 

[Norm Peterson]

And then they contradict themselves with that other blurb I quoted. I think we can agree, the owners supplement isn't a very technical document. As you can see, Ford dumbs it down to the lowest common denominator.

Ford doesn't exactly contradict themselves, which is to be expected (and downright obvious from their carefully crafted wordings). They do note what's similar between their DCT and a conventional MT, and they do point out how it differs from a conventional automatic. But they still stop short of actually calling it a manual and let the reader's imagination run with carefully biased writing. I used to review and approve technical documents as part of a day job I once had (I'm retired), so I do tend to look at what isn't stated and what is "between the lines".

And Tremec's position on the matter?

Tremec, the manufacturer, clearly differentiates between the two in the article I posted above.

Did you read the following paragraph? There's enough the same in "both shift gears automatically" that should remove all controversy here. To shift [gears] automatically is the very definition of an automatic transmission, regardless of how the mechanical operations are physically carried out. It really is that simple.

We’ll start with what is the same: A DCT and a traditional automatic transmission both shift gears automatically. There is no clutch pedal for the driver, and both are actuated by a shifter in which the driver selects Park, Reverse, Drive and some variances of Low or manually selected gears. And that’s where the similarities stop.

What I really don't understand is any objection behind considering the DCT a subset under automatic. If it's faster/faster-shifting, runs faster lap times or ETs, has better ratios, whatever, and still has some automated shifting - where's the problem in calling it an automatic? Drag racers are only too happy to note that their automatics are the choice to have in that activity. What's the problem here?

If I was going to seriously compete in some series where prizes and contingencies of real value were at stake, I'd pick a DCT-equipped GT500 over one with a Magnum XL if they were both in the same class. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest to think of the DCT as an automatic, and that's coming from a guy who still won't even buy automatics in the family sedans.


Norm

 

[Tomster]

Ford doesn't exactly contradict themselves, which is to be expected (and downright obvious from their carefully crafted wordings). They do note what's similar between their DCT and a conventional MT, and they do point out how it differs from a conventional automatic. But they still stop short of actually calling it a manual and let the reader's imagination run with carefully biased writing. I used to review and approve technical documents as part of a day job I once had (I'm retired), so I do tend to look at what isn't stated and what is "between the lines".



Did you read the following paragraph? There's enough the same in "both shift gears automatically" that should remove all controversy here. To shift [gears] automatically is the very definition of an automatic transmission, regardless of how the mechanical operations are physically carried out. It really is that simple.





What I really don't understand is any objection behind considering the DCT a subset under automatic. If it's faster/faster-shifting, runs faster lap times or ETs, has better ratios, whatever, and still has some automated shifting - where's the problem in calling it an automatic? Drag racers are only too happy to note that their automatics are the choice to have in that activity. What's the problem here?

If I was going to seriously compete in some series where prizes and contingencies of real value were at stake, I'd pick a DCT-equipped GT500 over one with a Magnum XL if they were both in the same class. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest to think of the DCT as an automatic, and that's coming from a guy who still won't even buy automatics in the family sedans.


Norm

I thought that Tremec article did a pretty good job differentiating the difference between an automatic and DCT. A really well put together article IMHO. So I guess we simply disagree on this subject. I'm going with Tremec on this one however.

I don't think its as simple as saying a DCT changes gears automatically, and therefore is an automatic.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Yes, it does. Hold the pedal to the floor in manual mode and it will hit redline. The fuel cutoff will kick in to save the engine and the trans, but it will not shift to the next gear.

What about when you're slowing to a full stop? Does it automatically select 1st for you in manual mode? I'm sure it does when you're using 'Drive' mode.


Tremec does mention that the DCT has more in common with a manual transmission, but even they carefully stop short of calling it a manual transmission. The big thing they don't say is that their DCT can automatically select gears, at least when using 'Drive'.


Norm

 

[RPDBlueMoon]

Blows my mind how these people take the time to troll the GT500 forum and they have never even driven the car let alone own one, lol. Classic case of sour grapes. Oh well, sucks to be a broke-ass.

I have noticed the same phenomenon happens in the GT350 forum whenever an engine fails. They come out the woodwork lol

 

[luc]

My definition of manual vs automatic is pretty simple:
A manual is a transmission system in which the driver use a stick to change gears with the possibility of making mistakes
Therefore skills are required and, as with any other skills, there is great pleasure and pride in mastering it

An automatic is a system that do not require driver to change gears for it to happen therefore no human mistake possible nor skills required
The car that gave me the most joy and pride when shifting ( clutch less because straight gears) was my 1991 Roush T/A Mustang with a Hewland narrow gears
The pleasure and pride was directly proportional to the the difficulty of the task

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