Last year for V8 2024 (and Mach-E discussion) via Ford Performance conference call

[Norm Peterson]

To be completely honest about it, a 300 lb motorcycle with a hard-mounted engine is going to be affected a whole lot more by the sort of 'wobbling' that an inline 3 inherently does. Balance shafting or not. I'd be curious as to how much visible vibration is associated with that 3, at least within a couple of frequency bands, and in how far it moves once a gear is engaged. Soft mounts almost certainly have to be part of the solution.


I'm not all that crazy about balance shaft solutions in general. It's only needed at all for engine configurations that are not either inherently balanced for primary and secondary forces and moments, or that can be completely balanced at the crankshaft. It's a solution for engines other than those, generally when displacement has outgrown the number of cylinders employed to get there. At 2.0L, an inline 4 is acceptable without them, but once you go above about 2.5 L they tend to need that sort of help.


Norm

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[shogun32]

A balance shaft is a parasitic loss, sure but it's the correct engineering solution. Why would anyone design a DD engine without one? Motorcycles have them all the way down to 300cc. The FiST and Mustang 2.0/2.3 have them too AFAIK.

 

[Norm Peterson]

A balance shaft is a parasitic loss, sure but it's the correct engineering solution. Why would anyone design a DD engine without one? Motorcycles have them all the way down to 300cc. The FiST and Mustang 2.0/2.3 have them too AFAIK.

You'd design without one when you've [properly] chosen a configuration that is either inherently balanced or balance-able without them. That's the correct basic decision. Balance shafting is the correct engineering fix for having made a technically poorer basic choice, including such as may be forced by external pressures having nothing to do with engine design proper.

I realize that it's more than just about displacement. Bore vs stroke gets involved, with longer stroke designs tending to run less smoothly than larger bore/shorter stroke configurations.

FWIW, I can remember driving cars whose 4-cylinder engines displaced as little as 948 cc. Less than one liter, divided among four cylinders.


Norm

 

[Gregs24]

You'd design without one when you've [properly] chosen a configuration that is either inherently balanced or balance-able without them. That's the correct basic decision. Balance shafting is the correct engineering fix for having made a technically poorer basic choice, including such as may be forced by external pressures having nothing to do with engine design proper.

I realize that it's more than just about displacement. Bore vs stroke gets involved, with longer stroke designs tending to run less smoothly than larger bore/shorter stroke configurations.

FWIW, I can remember driving cars whose 4-cylinder engines displaced as little as 948 cc. Less than one liter, divided among four cylinders.


Norm

Ecoboost 3 cylinder has a dual mass flywheel for this purpose. There are no issues with vibration with this engine - in fact it sounds like a V6 and goes like stink.

 

[5-OH]

This is the only electric mustang I ever want to see.

 

[martinjlm]

You'd design without one when you've [properly] chosen a configuration that is either inherently balanced or balance-able without them. That's the correct basic decision. Balance shafting is the correct engineering fix for having made a technically poorer basic choice, including such as may be forced by external pressures having nothing to do with engine design proper.

I realize that it's more than just about displacement. Bore vs stroke gets involved, with longer stroke designs tending to run less smoothly than larger bore/shorter stroke configurations.

FWIW, I can remember driving cars whose 4-cylinder engines displaced as little as 948 cc. Less than one liter, divided among four cylinders.


Norm

My recollection from interactions with engineers developing new engine platforms is pretty much along the principles you state. Do everything technically possible to avoid need for a balance shaft. Failing that, integrate that balance shaft to minimize mass and cost.

That's the problem when you let the accountants into the drawing room... Could we get a modern refresh of the I6 Mustang? I've said it before, but Ford Australia does have a 400+ HP powerplant in the Barra line.

In this age of varying fuel economy regulations for each major geographic region, it's more the energy management staffs than the bean-counters pushing towards smaller displacements and lower cylinder counts.

 

[Beano]

That's the problem when you let the accountants into the drawing room... Could we get a modern refresh of the I6 Mustang? I've said it before, but Ford Australia does have a 400+ HP powerplant in the Barra line.

The Aussie in-line 6 was a nice engine, sure, my F6 Tornado made 400rwkw @~18psi boost or something such. But they are harsh engines, can’t rev much past 6,500 due to harmonics, as they have no balance shaft....thus a narrow RPM band for a lot of torque, which wasn’t that good an idea...oh, if only they could be as smooth-revving as the Skyline or BMW in-line 6’s...

If you so wish, you can anyway read more of these engines over at xr6turbo.com

 

[Norm Peterson]

The Aussie in-line 6 was a nice engine, sure, my F6 Tornado made 400rwkw @~18psi boost or something such. But they are harsh engines, can’t rev much past 6,500 due to harmonics, as they have no balance shaft....thus a narrow RPM band for a lot of torque, which wasn’t that good an idea...oh, if only they could be as smooth-revving as the Skyline or BMW in-line 6’s...

It's a torsional issue.

Inline 6 engines typically have a long crankshaft. If it also features a long stroke, the crankshaft ends up being somewhat flexible (torsionally) unless the journals are intentionally made larger than necessary for strength purposes. The 4.2L Jaguar inline 6 engine featured a stroke of 4.17" and IIRC was normally redlined at only 5500 rpm.


Norm

 

[Beano]

This is true, but when you can package the same I-4 turbo into a coupe, sedan, CUV, pickup, hatchback, scooter, barstool, etc. it tends to make the accountants happy as well.


Shouldn't be too hard bring it into the 21st century in terms of NVH and all that. Also, I'm very interested in reading more, but that url doesn't go anywhere...

Oops, my apologies, here it is: https://www.fordxr6turbo.com/forum/

Agreed, they could have re-engineered it, as it were, it was basically an old cast-iron truck-engine that got a bit of treatment. Mine was a vicious bitch though, 400rwkw in a UTE with a live-axle was always going to make for a fun ride when the boost hit, and did it hit hard.....weeeee.....good fun.

‘These things Down Under made as much as a 1000rwhp, some guys went pretty extreme with them....but that Forums should give you a good overview...have a look under the Technical section for 300/400/500/600/700rwkw section, here is a direct link to the 700rwkw section....crazy stuff, actually.... https://www.fordxr6turbo.com/forum/forum/221-700-club/

Cheers,
Beano

 

[Beano]

:lol: Yeah, they are fun-things when you put a bit of fire under their arse ....

 

[Bullit]

No new Mustang in Europe - probably ever. The MY20 car is just a cosmetic update to the current S550 model. The current Mustang V8 will probably disappear in Europe in 2021, maybe the Ecoboost will survive.

If you want one buy one now !

Mustang is selling well in Europe, and Ford has confirmed we'll get Mach E here. I think the next Mustang will coming to Europe.

 

[Chris Meyers]

Oops, my apologies, here it is: https://www.fordxr6turbo.com/forum/

Agreed, they could have re-engineered it, as it were, it was basically an old cast-iron truck-engine that got a bit of treatment. Mine was a vicious bitch though, 400rwkw in a UTE with a live-axle was always going to make for a fun ride when the boost hit, and did it hit hard.....weeeee.....good fun.

‘These things Down Under made as much as a 1000rwhp, some guys went pretty extreme with them....but that Forums should give you a good overview...have a look under the Technical section for 300/400/500/600/700rwkw section, here is a direct link to the 700rwkw section....crazy stuff, actually.... https://www.fordxr6turbo.com/forum/forum/221-700-club/

Cheers,
Beano

Ford Australia doesn't produce any of those anymore. Correct me if I'm wrong but they don't even make cars or engines in Australia anymore.

 

[EcoVert]

Mustang is selling well in Europe, and Ford has confirmed we'll get Mach E here. I think the next Mustang will coming to Europe.

Europe is going to get half of the Mach E's production

 

[w3rkn]

Check your facts.... Or just keep believing whatever BULLSH*T site/blog you got that from...

I said toxins. As in pollutants...

Coincidentally, You have yet to establish that CO2 is a pollutant, or harmful to humans, or the planet. If so, then don't have any more kids, save the world from Co2...

Or as-if, more Co2 is bad for mother earth and all the vegetation, etc..

 

[Bikeman315]

Europe is going to get half of the Mach E's production

Actually 60% - https://electrek.co/2019/11/27/eu-r...ty-of-fords-50k-first-year-mach-e-production/
Bet Ford is going to be announcing a sellout in the US just days before they start shipping.

By the way has there been any further reservation numbers released by Ford. They've been pretty quite recently.

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