Torque Management advancetrac "the plug", and timing

[mmakam2]

So playing around last night doing some pulls, I noticed (even with advancetrac off), in 2nd gear I was only getting 26deg of timing, but as soon as I shifted into 3rd i would get 31 degrees. This got me thinking, why is timing being pulled even with advacetrac off (long hold of toggle).

So I pulled over, unplugged the plug by the airbox, and what do you know, 2nd gear gets full 31 degrees of timing now.

This just opened up a whole bunch of other questions that I need to get answered, hopefully someone out there knows.

Note: This testing was done with the Lund E85R tune.

1. By unplugging the "plug", do you lose ABS, or just trac and stability.
2. Is this torque management that is pulling timing in 2nd?
3. Can Lund change my tune so i get full power in 2nd? So I don't have to keep my plug unplugged.

Before the flame war begins, I have been driving high horsepower cars (600hp turbo cars) that don't have ABS, trac, stability for many years, I know how to control my vehicle under power. I am not risking anything by doing this, even if it was wet out or snow on the ground, I know how to drive. This was not the case though during my testing it was 90F out no rain.

Please don't turn this thread into why I shouldn't unplug the plug. Just trying to understand the systems in my vehicle more. Before last night, I thought the long hold of the toggle would disable torque management.

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[mmakam2]

I asked Lund about this issue, but Brandon is giving me some weird answers. He is saying its false knock caused by road noise.

This doesn't make sense, if this were true, it would still pull timing with the "the plug" disconnected. I can repeat these results over and over again, this is not a one off.

 

[JAJ]

...
1. By unplugging the "plug", do you lose ABS, or just trac and stability.
2. Is this torque management that is pulling timing in 2nd?
3. Can Lund change my tune so i get full power in 2nd? So I don't have to keep my plug unplugged.
...

1. From looking at the wiring diagram, it looks like "the plug" removes power from the ABS module, so, if that's true, then the whole thing is gone - ABS, stability, f/r balance management, everything. The mystery, though, is why it doesn't throw a million codes when you do that. Or does it? Can you still switch driving modes - Comfort, Sport, Track?
2. Hard to say - I took a look at the SCT file for mine and the main objective of torque management seems to be clutch protection. It seems unlikely that it'll do much when the clutch is engaged. Advancetrac can tell the ECU to reduce power, but if it's not actively controlling wheelspin, then that's unlikely.
3. You'd have to ask them - probably.

 

[honeybadger]

I believe @ben@fatfab knows quite a bit about this. If I recall correctly, a big push for moving to the Motec system was to get more flexibility and adjustability in this area.

 

[mmakam2]

1. From looking at the wiring diagram, it looks like "the plug" removes power from the ABS module, so, if that's true, then the whole thing is gone - ABS, stability, f/r balance management, everything. The mystery, though, is why it doesn't throw a million codes when you do that. Or does it? Can you still switch driving modes - Comfort, Sport, Track?
2. Hard to say - I took a look at the SCT file for mine and the main objective of torque management seems to be clutch protection. It seems unlikely that it'll do much when the clutch is engaged. Advancetrac can tell the ECU to reduce power, but if it's not actively controlling wheelspin, then that's unlikely.
3. You'd have to ask them - probably.

I get two squiggly line dash lights basically advancetrac/trac lights, no ABS lights or any other codes.

Driving modes still work perfectly. Dampers, steering, exhaust valves, everything. LC not available of course.

I wish i had a license to HP tuners and a non Lund ngauge.

 

[mmakam2]

If it is AdvanceTrac that is pulling timing, this means disabling it with the toggle switch for 7seconds does not FULLY disable it.

At the end of the day 4degrees of timing probably only means about 5 wheel or so on a NA voodoo, so not a big deal BUT i want to know what my car is doing. What if I want wheelspin and it starts pulling power? In what scenarios does it kick on?

I hear stories of mustangs that can blow tires in 1st and 3rd, but 2nd bogs. Maybe there is some truth to this.

 

[honeybadger]

If it is AdvanceTrac that is pulling timing, this means disabling it with the toggle switch for 7seconds does not FULLY disable it.

At the end of the day 4degrees of timing probably only means about 5 wheel or so on a NA voodoo, so not a big deal BUT i want to know what my car is doing. What if I want wheelspin and it starts pulling power? In what scenarios does it kick on?

I hear stories of mustangs that can blow tires in 1st and 3rd, but 2nd bogs. Maybe there is some truth to this.

Not sure on a stock car, but on my car during the dyno day it resulted in more like 30 whp when pulling that much timing. But YMMV.

It's also been proven that you cannot completely disable AdvanceTrac on these cars without pulling the plug, which also disables ABS.

 

[mmakam2]

Not sure on a stock car, but on my car during the dyno day it resulted in more like 30 whp when pulling that much timing. But YMMV.

It's also been proven that you cannot completely disable AdvanceTrac on these cars without pulling the plug, which also disables ABS.

That 30whp was probably combined with the rest of the tune, heres a good video Alex did to prove how much timing makes a difference all else being equal:

 

[honeybadger]

That 30whp was probably combined with the rest of the tune, heres a good video Alex did to prove how much timing makes a difference all else being equal:

Depends on a lot of things. My car was running 100 octane race fuel/E85 and has some additional modifications to increase efficiency in certain areas. Based on what I saw, it depends on a whole host of variables and JUST a timing change can result in widely different numbers. Like I said, YMMV.

 

[mmakam2]

Depends on a lot of things. My car was running 100 octane race fuel/E85 and has some additional modifications to increase efficiency in certain areas. Based on what I saw, it depends on a whole host of variables and JUST a timing change can result in widely different numbers. Like I said, YMMV.

I think the point Alex was trying to make was he was controlling for those variables. All else being equal i don't think 4 degrees will give you 30 wheel on a N/A car. Lund basically said the same thing to me via email.

I can't say either way because I don't have a dyno personally, but just going on what others who do have proven.

Update: Alex's video was also E85, and I also am on E85.

 

[honeybadger]

I think the point Alex was trying to make was he was controlling for those variables. All else being equal i don't think 4 degrees will give you 30 wheel on a N/A car. Lund basically said the same thing to me via email.

I can't say either way because I don't have a dyno personally, but just going on what others who do have proven.

Update: Alex's video was also E85, and I also am on E85.

I think we're at two different altitudes. I'm saying how much timing affects horse power will vary with variables outside of the ones in the video. For example, aftermarket cams, head work, etc. And it will also vary depending on total timing. For example, My car doesn't even crest 30 degrees because we're pushing for maximum extended rpm reliability. The timing change from 24-28 was much bigger than what is being referred to here. Alex's video is specific to a stock engine.

 

[mmakam2]

I think we're at two different altitudes. I'm saying how much timing affects horse power will vary with variables outside of the ones in the video. For example, aftermarket cams, head work, etc. And it will also vary depending on total timing. For example, My car doesn't even crest 30 degrees because we're pushing for maximum extended rpm reliability. The timing change from 24-28 was much bigger than what is being referred to here. Alex's video is specific to a stock engine.

agreed timing is going to have diminishing returns higher you go. I guess i was specifically talking about 27-31 on our cars with stockish motors.

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