Dedicated track tire for 18x10 recommendations

[stoli]

So I'm down to deciding between the NT-01 (~$1200) or Pirelli slick takeoffs (~$600). I hate choosing tires.

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[c_reber]

So I'm down to deciding between the NT-01 (~$1200) or Pirelli slick takeoffs (~$600). I hate choosing tires.

That price sure is enticing on the race scrubs! But I still think the NT-01's will last a bit longer. But really have no clue, not much data out on the Pirelli race tires used on a mustang for HPDE.

 

[NightmareMoon]

For the sake of learning, I was instructed NOT to jump to scrubs. They supposedly can create bad habits and cover up driving errors due to their grip.

My progression will be 300tw -> NT01s -> scrubs, as skill progresses.

Sure, sticky tires can mask mistakes (in a bad way) if the driver is doing stupid stuff but still comfortably below the traction limits of the tire.

But on the other hand, many street tires with lower limits can often have less desirable breakaway behavior or narrow tolerance for slip angles or heat. There is a lot more to tire performance than just ultimate grip.

I think the ideal practice tire may have lower limits and better longevity, but mainly it would have a forgiving breakaway at the limit with great feedback. I want to see the limits as they approach and learn to recover if I've overstepped them some. Something that drives like an RE71R or Rival S allowing you to flirt with the limits, but lasts longer.

 

[ddozier]

I think the ideal practice tire may have lower limits and better longevity, but mainly it would have a forgiving breakaway at the limit with great feedback. I want to see the limits as they approach and learn to recover if I've overstepped them some. Something that drives like an RE71R or Rival S allowing you to flirt with the limits, but lasts longer.

You just described the NT01, drives like a 200 treadwear tire but has more ultimate grip. The NT01 wears like iron for a R-Comp 100 treadwear tire. On my NSX I would routinely see 45-50 heat cycles before they corded, the tires are very durable and will handle long session of 20-25 min without falling off, they come in quick usually within 1/2 to 3/4 of the first lap and they are there. Manage your alignment and air pressures and the tire just keeps going.

I run them at 36psi hot, that means you have to sometimes start around 28-29 psi as in a 20 min session you can easily pick up 8-10 psi. If they get to 40psi they will start to get greasy near the end of your runs and grip will be reduced. If do get them too hot, just drive a cool down lap and the tire will come right back, very forgiving tire.

For those of you thinking about driving to an event on NT01's I would strongly advise you not to do it, they are noisy, horrible in the wet, and you are wasting track rubber on the street. Trailer the car, build a wheel trailer, figure out how to get them in the car, whatever you have to do but I would not drive on the street in my track tires. If you are forced to drive to your events choose a 200 treadwear street tire and save your money for a 2nd set of wheels and dedicated track tires.

Dave

 

[stoli]

I'm sold on the NT01. 305/35 18 it is unless someone has a compelling reason (besides price) to step down to the 275/40 18.

 

[c_reber]

I'm sold on the NT01. 305/35 18 it is unless someone has a compelling reason (besides price) to step down to the 275/40 18.

Or forever hold your peace. LMAO

I think that will be a great set up. 305 is a bit wide for a 10" wheel (especially because NT-01 typically do run very wide). But I think it will work just fine and hope it lasts you a while

 

[SteveW]

I'm sold on the NT01. 305/35 18 it is unless someone has a compelling reason (besides price) to step down to the 275/40 18.

The 305 would be a much better fit on an 11" wheel. There isn't a gearing advantage between the two. You'll likely get the same performance between both on a 10" wheel but the 305 will feel spongy and dull compared to the 275. The 275 might even wear more evenly because it fits better on the 10" wheel.

 

[sigintel]

275 will be way better to learn and develop skill on using a narrower wheel.
Master that and I promise you will notice the dynamic issues if you then jam a 305 on that wheel. Once you feel the precise edge and taught transition of properly set up sidewall, anything less will bother you at triple digit corner entry or chicanes.

You might really want most stable/linear behavior beyond limit at high slip angles like might occur during learning or pushing oneself past limit.
Rephrase: you want the best performance when you exceed limits and fug up on track.

First time you overcook a turn off main straight and get to practice catching a trail braked oversteer spin, you are less likely to smack your head on the inside of the window with the 275 vs a more violent 305 on the recovery. Less violent recovery. Sometimes its not a question of an off but if you go into gravel sideways or get to straighten it out some first. $10k vs $1k damage.

The S550 chassis limits are extremely high and you can generate some extremely violent transitions: proper sidewall/rim width notes from tire mfg test engineers might be worth sticking to until you have direct experience to draw on.

 

[stoli]

275 will be way better to learn and develop skill on using a narrower wheel.
Master that and I promise you will notice the dynamic issues if you then jam a 305 on that wheel. Once you feel the precise edge and taught transition of properly set up sidewall, anything less will bother you at triple digit corner entry or chicanes.

You might really want most stable/linear behavior beyond limit at high slip angles like might occur during learning or pushing oneself past limit.
Rephrase: you want the best performance when you exceed limits and fug up on track.

First time you overcook a turn off main straight and get to practice catching a trail braked oversteer spin, you are less likely to smack your head on the inside of the window with the 275 vs a more violent 305 on the recovery. Less violent recovery. Sometimes its not a question of an off but if you go into gravel sideways or get to straighten it out some first. $10k vs $1k damage.

The S550 chassis limits are extremely high and you can generate some extremely violent transitions: proper sidewall/rim width notes from tire mfg test engineers might be worth sticking to until you have direct experience to draw on.

I appreciate all that and have already ordered 275s but also note the 305 on a 10" is in Nitto's specs.

 

[gtorpedo]

I appreciate all that and have already ordered 275s but also note the 305 on a 10" is in Nitto's specs.

Looking forward to hearing your feedback on this as I imagine I will eventually go with the 275 NT01s on my Apex 18x10 wheels.

 

[c_reber]

So I'm down to deciding between the NT-01 (~$1200) or Pirelli slick takeoffs (~$600). I hate choosing tires.

And I got a set of the Pirelli slicks Shipping was cheap for me so I got them under $500. No clue when I'll be able to test them out, sometime next year.

 

[ddozier]

That price sure is enticing on the race scrubs! But I still think the NT-01's will last a bit longer. But really have no clue, not much data out on the Pirelli race tires used on a mustang for HPDE.

Without a doubt the NT01 will outlast any slick tire new or scrub. You will likely see about 12-14 20-25 min heat cycles with the Pirelli Slicks on a Mustang. The Corvette and Viper guys run this "DH" compound for HPDE use and that is what they are getting.

The Pirelli takes a lap or two to come in as you have to work them to get pressure and heat to build, the Viper guys run them at 32-36psi hot. They start out with peak grip and after about 8-10 heat cycles they start to fall off, not as fast as a Hoosier R6 does but there is a noticeable drop in peak grip. When they are heat cycled out they still look like there is a ton of rubber left but you might as well be on a street tire as you will likely be able to turn faster lap times.

The thing about most slicks is temperature management, all RComps and slicks have an operating temperature they work best in, if you never get them up to that temp you will never see the true potential of the tire, if you get them too hot you will loose grip and can damage the tire. A tire pyro and the willingness to work with camber and toe settings to dial in the tire to achieve the proper heat range makes a huge difference in the return on the tire.

Camber settings is the biggest difference between street, RComp, and Slick tires. I would start out at whatever you run for a street tire and add 1-1.5* negative camber front and rear for a RComp tire, then add another 1-1.5* negative camber when you go to a slick. Once you get out there get some heat in the tires over a few hard laps and have someone waiting for you with a Pyro in the hot pits, do not do a cool down lap, bring the car in hot and check tire temps in three places across the tire and note the temps and pressures. With this data you can dial in the camber for the tire, you will also know if you are able to use a slick tire. If you can not get the tire into the proper temp range you need to go back down a tire type and get more seat time or you will be wasting a lot of money on expensive track rubber.

If you spend a lot of time chasing the tire temps on a slick tire you are probably not ready to go there, it takes a more consistent driver to bring the tire near its peak and keep it there, you can overdrive the tire and get the temps up but you will still not be using the tire to go any quicker, and will be wasting the tires.

My advice is if you feel you have gotten all you can get out of a street tire go to a RComp (Nitto NT01, Toyo R888, Hoosier R7 ect.) and you will have an entirely new peak level to learn to drive to. Master that then move on to a Slick. I spent about 5 years learning the new limits of a RComp before I made the move to a Slick. It will take me another 3-5 years to learn the limits of a Slick tire especially as the grip level of a Slick is always changing as they take on more heat cycles.

Most guys make the move to use RComps and Slicks because they like the idea of having the extra grip as a safety margin, they never intend to drive beyond the limit of a street tire but they feel the RComp will "save" them from making a big mistake and getting into trouble. This is not going to end well as the driver never learns to find the limits of a given tires grip level and the new limit of the RComp or Slick is well above the drivers ability. Since the driver has no feel for the limit of any tire they have never learned how to drive near, at, or beyond the limit of the tire. This in my mind is a very dangerous place to be. More dangerous than diving a street tire to its limit.

There is a lot to learn about any given tire and its potencial.

Dave

 

[JmalB]

I was going to say "What no love for Kuhmo V710s?" Then I noticed they aren't available. I got a lot of autocross/track mileage out of the set I had on my Miata. Yeah I know. Not the same kind of car.

So maybe V720 ACRs?

 

[sigintel]

I appreciate all that and have already ordered 275s but also note the 305 on a 10" is in Nitto's specs.

You checked! +2
If they specced it, then with Nitto they likely tested it. Not preferred rim width?
If its edge of range, just keep that in mind.
There are semi and Full cantilevers sidewall tires (sometimes called cheater tires), but the sidewalls are designed for narrow rims.

 

[c_reber]

Without a doubt the NT01 will outlast any slick tire new or scrub. You will likely see about 12-14 20-25 min heat cycles with the Pirelli Slicks on a Mustang. The Corvette and Viper guys run this "DH" compound for HPDE use and that is what they are getting.

The Pirelli takes a lap or two to come in as you have to work them to get pressure and heat to build, the Viper guys run them at 32-36psi hot. They start out with peak grip and after about 8-10 heat cycles they start to fall off, not as fast as a Hoosier R6 does but there is a noticeable drop in peak grip. When they are heat cycled out they still look like there is a ton of rubber left but you might as well be on a street tire as you will likely be able to turn faster lap times.

The thing about most slicks is temperature management, all RComps and slicks have an operating temperature they work best in, if you never get them up to that temp you will never see the true potential of the tire, if you get them too hot you will loose grip and can damage the tire. A tire pyro and the willingness to work with camber and toe settings to dial in the tire to achieve the proper heat range makes a huge difference in the return on the tire.

Camber settings is the biggest difference between street, RComp, and Slick tires. I would start out at whatever you run for a street tire and add 1-1.5* negative camber front and rear for a RComp tire, then add another 1-1.5* negative camber when you go to a slick. Once you get out there get some heat in the tires over a few hard laps and have someone waiting for you with a Pyro in the hot pits, do not do a cool down lap, bring the car in hot and check tire temps in three places across the tire and note the temps and pressures. With this data you can dial in the camber for the tire, you will also know if you are able to use a slick tire. If you can not get the tire into the proper temp range you need to go back down a tire type and get more seat time or you will be wasting a lot of money on expensive track rubber.

If you spend a lot of time chasing the tire temps on a slick tire you are probably not ready to go there, it takes a more consistent driver to bring the tire near its peak and keep it there, you can overdrive the tire and get the temps up but you will still not be using the tire to go any quicker, and will be wasting the tires.

My advice is if you feel you have gotten all you can get out of a street tire go to a RComp (Nitto NT01, Toyo R888, Hoosier R7 ect.) and you will have an entirely new peak level to learn to drive to. Master that then move on to a Slick. I spent about 5 years learning the new limits of a RComp before I made the move to a Slick. It will take me another 3-5 years to learn the limits of a Slick tire especially as the grip level of a Slick is always changing as they take on more heat cycles.

Most guys make the move to use RComps and Slicks because they like the idea of having the extra grip as a safety margin, they never intend to drive beyond the limit of a street tire but they feel the RComp will "save" them from making a big mistake and getting into trouble. This is not going to end well as the driver never learns to find the limits of a given tires grip level and the new limit of the RComp or Slick is well above the drivers ability. Since the driver has no feel for the limit of any tire they have never learned how to drive near, at, or beyond the limit of the tire. This in my mind is a very dangerous place to be. More dangerous than diving a street tire to its limit.

There is a lot to learn about any given tire and its potencial.

Dave

Awesome info, thanks for taking the time to type all that out!

I didn't mean to hijack the thread. I just thought it was a pretty good deal on some tires I can have fun with at the track. Like you said, I'd of course prefer a new set of nt-01 or R888R. Or even a nice street tire for that matter, but I think the Pirelli slicks will be fun for half the price ;) [I'm a major cheapskate] But I do have a pyrometer and will check the temps out.

Stoli I'm sure you'll love the 275 NT01, keep us updated on your track fun with the new tires!

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