Upgraded Wastegate Actuator

[Datalux]

I've read several comments, mostly abroad, regarding the upgrading of the Wastegate Actuator and still have some questions that maybe the active community has experience with:

I'm considering the TS (7psi) WGA since it only adds 0-1psi, to be safe. (Ya, I know, but I can add a 3 psi spring later if necessary) Daily driver, blah, blah, blah. Only other mods at this point are colder plugs and an A.E.M. CAI.

If the Turbosmart WGA increases boost in the mid RPM range and holds a little longer at the top, will the ECU correct for this changing condition (fuel) or do you need to tune for it? I'm curious if this could cause a lean condition without tuning.

"You need to have the WGA professionally calibrated and dyno'ed." Really??!! Turning the clevis 2mm is called professional calibration? What would the dyno tell me? 1/2 turn too much you idiot!?

Has anyone here installed the 10psi or 7psi WGA without tuning? Was there a noticable improvement in boost consistency? I.e. Works as advertised? Any issues?

Will this void my warranty? <- Nevermind :frusty:

Future mods:
A.E.M. Aluminum Charge Pipes
Custom exhaust
CP-e Intercooler

Thanks

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[ypena02]

You need to tune for it.

 

[Bugasu]

The boost control system relies on a given actuator and the characteristics of that actuator.

By changing the actuator out, you change not just the preload, but its response characteristics, wastegate pressure characteristics, etc.

All of these are modeled and utilized by the ECU to control boost. You mess with it, and you've just messed with the model.

The ECU will use the throttle to control your airflow. You should not run lean ever short of running out of injector, as its full time closed loop as well. There's always corrections for the airflow. Secondly, because its controlling your airflow, just putting an actuator on to raise boost wont raise your airflow. You give it more pre throttle boost, it will simply close the throttle more, and you end up where you started.

However, you mess with the boost control system without telling it the changes, and you will probably end up with overboost codes in this case. Its very sensitive. On stock tunes, there's an overboost run time and overboost fault check constantly monitoring the wastegate system. If it doesn't detect proper operation, it will disable the wastegate actuator. If this is insufficient, it will go further and open the bypass valve.

So feel free to modify it without a tune, but don't be surprised when the ECU shuts you down.

 

[Busser48]

I've read several comments, mostly abroad, regarding the upgrading of the Wastegate Actuator and still have some questions that maybe the active community has experience with:

I'm considering the TS (7psi) WGA since it only adds 0-1psi, to be safe. (Ya, I know, but I can add a 3 psi spring later if necessary) Daily driver, blah, blah, blah. Only other mods at this point are colder plugs and an A.E.M. CAI.

If the Turbosmart WGA increases boost in the mid RPM range and holds a little longer at the top, will the ECU correct for this changing condition (fuel) or do you need to tune for it? I'm curious if this could cause a lean condition without tuning.

"You need to have the WGA professionally calibrated and dyno'ed." Really??!! Turning the clevis 2mm is called professional calibration? What would the dyno tell me? 1/2 turn too much you idiot!?

Has anyone here installed the 10psi or 7psi WGA without tuning? Was there a noticable improvement in boost consistency? I.e. Works as advertised? Any issues?

Will this void my warranty? <- Nevermind :frusty:

Future mods:
A.E.M. Aluminum Charge Pipes
Custom exhaust
CP-e Intercooler

Thanks

It will void your warranty, it was on the list of things to look out for from ford corporate headquarters to the dealerships, tune for it, and I would suggest Adam at tune + he has an awesome wastegate and tune

 

[Datalux]

It will void your warranty, it was on the list of things to look out for from ford corporate headquarters to the dealerships, tune for it, and I would suggest Adam at tune + he has an awesome wastegate and tune

Ya, it was a joke. In for a pint, in for a pound I say.

 

[Datalux]

The boost control system relies on a given actuator and the characteristics of that actuator.

By changing the actuator out, you change not just the preload, but its response characteristics, wastegate pressure characteristics, etc.

All of these are modeled and utilized by the ECU to control boost. You mess with it, and you've just messed with the model.

Thanks, so in thinking about this for a bit, my question would be "How does one go about modeling the characteristics of a given WGA?" Short of the manufacturer providing a table or some such predetermined model, it would have to be created by the Tuner after multiple pulls at various RPM ranges by the tuner. It also seems the stock model would have a rather wide tolerance. I find it hard to believe the manufactures are using precision springs in the stock devices. While it seems like a pretty simple concept in my mind, I guess it's more complex.

So feel free to modify it without a tune, but don't be surprised when the ECU shuts you down.

Damn you ECU!! So if it won't respond in a civilized manner after swapping WGA's, then again I ask how do you model/tune it if the ECU is fighting you? I'm sure some of this is really elementary to some, but this is my first turbo and I really want to understand this chit.

 

[EnFOURcer]

The boost control system relies on a given actuator and the characteristics of that actuator.

By changing the actuator out, you change not just the preload, but its response characteristics, wastegate pressure characteristics, etc.

That is the point of it :headbonk:

 

[Busser48]

That is the point of it :headbonk:

^this

 

[5pointOh]

Thanks, so in thinking about this for a bit, my question would be "How does one go about modeling the characteristics of a given WGA?" Short of the manufacturer providing a table or some such predetermined model, it would have to be created by the Tuner after multiple pulls at various RPM ranges by the tuner. It also seems the stock model would have a rather wide tolerance. I find it hard to believe the manufactures are using precision springs in the stock devices. While it seems like a pretty simple concept in my mind, I guess it's more complex.



Damn you ECU!! So if it won't respond in a civilized manner after swapping WGA's, then again I ask how do you model/tune it if the ECU is fighting you? I'm sure some of this is really elementary to some, but this is my first turbo and I really want to understand this chit.

You tune the ECU, basically rewrite the wastegate parameters to match the profile of the new wastegate. In newb terms, you put the car on the dyno with the new wastegate, data log the ecu to find out where its fighting you at, then you go in with the tune and adjust those parameters to make the ECU think that the new WGA is supposed to be there.

Your ECU is just a big database of tables that it references based upon input from the different sensors attached to the engine/turbo/etc. If it is seeing something that doesnt correspond with existing tables then its going to do whatever it needs to do in order to try and get things back to where its confortable. That is where the tune comes into play, your tuner goes in and modifies those tables in the ECU so that it no longer freaks out when it sees something new that you added. This is also why you have to retune when you add new engine parts even after your initial tune. That pretty much covers the gist of it but if you have any other questions let me know.

 

[Datalux]

That is the point of it :headbonk:

So... Tune required

The 7 psi unit does not require a tune but you can maximize the results if you do tune.

10 psi and up do require tuning (you can order them with whatever spring suites your needs up to 45psi -:eyebulge

Err.... No tune required?

You can run it on a stock tune but you can't go full throttle or it will overboost, same goes for the Turbosmart off the shelf actuators, the 7psi one works however it will cause MORE throttle closures than the factory tune already has.

If Adam sees this... could you explain what the "throttle closures" are to a newb and how they would affect performance or reliability?

 

[5pointOh]

So... Tune required



Err.... No tune required?



If Adam sees this... could you explain what the "throttle closures" are to a newb and how they would affect performance or reliability?

the throttle is drive by wire in these cars which means there is no mechanical linkage between the gas pedal and the throttle body. When you press the gas, an electrical signal gets sent to the ECU which in turn sends a command to the throttle body to open. throttle closure means that even though you are requesting say 100% throttle the ECU will only give you say 75% because it sees more boost than its expecting for that given scenario. It does not affect reliability, its actually a function of reliability because the ECU is trying to maintain the stock parameters. As far as performance thats obvious, less throttle = less acceleration.

 

[Edkiefer]

Ok, If you use same pressure WGA, there no tune needed but question is why do that.
The whole reason to use a higher WGA is so the spring tension is higher and less chance of leaking when back pressure at turbine increases. This should fatten up boost , making it more contant.

Probably best would be in 12-15lb so you get a decent amount of pressure added and then you will need tune to lower duty cycles on boost electronic valve .
As has been noted by others these cars use throttle and boost to control load/TQ ,its not just boost .
Here interesting info from acesstuner goes into detail on this.

https://cobbtuning.atlassian.net/wiki/display/PRS/Ford+Tuning+Guide

 

[EnFOURcer]

So... Tune required



Err.... No tune required?



If Adam sees this... could you explain what the "throttle closures" are to a newb and how they would affect performance or reliability?

Just as I stated above.



As with installation of most any performance enhancing product, custom tuning will allow you to extract the maximum potential gains.

Now, there are many many people who do not wish to go as far as tuning their vehicle. They want simple bolt-on products that will enhance their performance in one aspect or another. This segment of the market is much larger than the people looking to go "all out".

So why a 7psi IWG?
The OEM actuator has a net result and the action of a 7 psi setup. It actually has a much softer spring and they pre-load the hell out of it to achieve this result. This also reduces the amount of stroke available which has other boost control implications.
By going with a different spring combination (with a higher rate of progression) and less pre-load than the OEM to achieve the same net result, we can realize an increase in spool-up response and more power under the curve without over-shooting what the ECU is wanting to see as a result.
Peak boost numbers end up being mostly the same but the curve is quite different.
The ECU's built in "nannies" (safeties) do have a window of tolerance and the ECU does its thing and all is good.
If the ECU was so locked down that any changes in power and response would initiate a code or problem, they would not be able to sell these cars and things like fuel octane/quality, elevation, weather, etc all effect how the motor behaves.
This "window of tolerance" is what allows us to mod these cars.

The 10psi IWG (and higher ratings) goes one step further.
Now you are able to completely manipulate the curve and extract maximum performance out of that turbo. Tuning is indeed recommended to keep the nannies at bay.



Here is a dyno graph of the differences to be had versus stock -
http://cdn.speednik.com/files/2015/06/iwg75vsstock-640x494.jpeg

 

[evan546]

I was wondering if you guys could help me.

I have a vargas stage 1 turbo I installed and i cant build boost past 8ish psi.

I am running it ob stock tune for now and from what im reading its my wastegate causing the issues?

My turbo has a 15psi wastegate i was thinking i could put the factory wastegate on my turbo i shouldn't have anymore issues right?

 

[EnFOURcer]

I was wondering if you guys could help me.

I have a vargas stage 1 turbo I installed and i cant build boost past 8ish psi.

I am running it ob stock tune for now and from what im reading its my wastegate causing the issues?

My turbo has a 15psi wastegate i was thinking i could put the factory wastegate on my turbo i shouldn't have anymore issues right?

I HIGHLY recommend tuning if you have changed the turbo etc.
Its probably constantly in limp mode.

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