2015+ Throttle body tuning issues?

[pwnall1337]

Hey Guys,

I have a 2016 GT w/PP and phase 1 roush blower and MBRP race catback w/105 miles on the odo. Car doesn't really feel fast enough to my liking and I want 650+ rwhp. The phase 2 kit looks nice, but I wouldn't mind getting a custom calibration, however I would prefer my local tuner who has tuned all my other cars with amazing results. I've also worked with cobb atr software myself. I'm wondering what the big deal if about these 2015+ and twin throttle bodies that make them hard to tune. I've even seen terry@beefcake mention that it separates the boys from the men when it comes to tuning on another forum. I'm having a hard time finding posts in regards to this. Anyone that can shed some technical light on this subject?

Thanks.

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[Falconetti]

Who is your local tuner?

 

[pwnall1337]

Who is your local tuner?

I'll keep that one to myself for now. Thanks

 

[Whipple SC]

Sct released some TB settings which would be nearly impossible for you to figure out, it's just not like modifying a few flow tables.

Do yourself a favor, contact Lund Tuning and never look back, simply cannot go wrong if you go that route. I would tell you almost nobody else can tune these correctly without the imrc valves, trust me.


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[Falconetti]

I'll keep that one to myself for now. Thanks

I'm sure he appreciates that :shrug:

 

[evo8904]

Get a Lund tune!

 

[pwnall1337]

While I respect everyone's opinion to "get a lund tune". I'm not exactly asking where I should get my car tuned. I'm more in search for understanding the parameters of the throttle body control, so far the most helpful was whipple. I would have open this thread in a self tuning/data log subforum, but there is not one. Right now debating whether or not to buy the sct x4 pro racer software.

 

[aschaefer]

I'll keep that one to myself for now. Thanks

Lol god forbid someone knows who tuned your car

 

[ATTFighter]

While I respect everyone's opinion to "get a lund tune". I'm not exactly asking where I should get my car tuned. I'm more in search for understanding the parameters of the throttle body control, so far the most helpful was whipple. I would have open this thread in a self tuning/data log subforum, but there is not one. Right now debating whether or not to buy the sct x4 pro racer software.

Considering only a couple of tuners know and figured out how to properly tune the car regarding the throttle body parameters as already mentioned (lund) , I highly doubt your going to get your answer posting here to the general public.

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[Superman15]

Lol god forbid someone knows who tuned your car

He could tell you, but then he would have to kill you. LOL

 

[pwnall1337]

He could tell you, but then he would have to kill you. LOL

Kill you with hugs.

 

[Whipple SC]

While I respect everyone's opinion to "get a lund tune". I'm not exactly asking where I should get my car tuned. I'm more in search for understanding the parameters of the throttle body control, so far the most helpful was whipple. I would have open this thread in a self tuning/data log subforum, but there is not one. Right now debating whether or not to buy the sct x4 pro racer software.

The reason everyone is telling you to get a Lund because these new PCM are extremely hard to calibrate, in no way can you just wing it yourself. Extremely experienced tuners are struggling.

Nobody will give you the special info you need, that's a lot of time, sweat, headaches and know how to get these running.


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[markmurfie]

You probably wont get any in depth technical information on these forums. If you are just tring to help your local tuner out in figuring out the 2015-16+ tuning i would suggest going direct to the manufacture of the software your tuner uses. Some software manufactures have there own information resources that they can direct you to for questions or situations you need help with.

There are many tables and parameters that have effects on each other. Along side sensor input values the ECU uses a number of flow models and speed density calculations that involve very high level math and physics to understand. It is much easier for someone who isn't having luck with their current tuner and doesn't want to figure it out them self's to just go with another tuner who does have it figured out. As an example the throttle body model uses three parameters. Effective area, vacuum, and throttle angle. To figure this out you would need to calculate the area of the throttle blade then calculate the effective area which would be how the area changes as the blade rotates from zero degrees(closed) to 90 degrees(open). The effective area Isn't the blade, but the area that air can flow through the opening so you need to look at the area of the throttle body minus the area of the throttle blade at given angle. If your throttle blade is oval or you have two blades that just adds to the complexity of the math that is involved. After figuring out the angle/ effective area relationship you could use the sensor values to get the vacuum values, but that would be cutting yourself short. If you wanted to be as accurate as possible you would need to use a compressible fluid dynamics formula with the effective area and any other variables the formula requires and get the amount of air at given angles that can flow through the throttle body. If you know this and understand the speed density calculations you can calculate the vacuum in the manifold. This is just the model of the throttle body in a very simple explanation. The driver demand is based on torque, RPM, and throttle angle. as you can see both use throttle angle and torque(not easy to guess at) is another variable used in many tables. This shows you that if you change the throttle body in order to get the benefits of it with out sacrifice you would need to modify all of these tables correctly.

So basically you need a very extensive background in physics and math in order to understand the ECU and how physical modification will effect the values. You definitely can just go at it blind with small tweaks of different tables and see what the sensors say, but this will take you much much longer to figure out all the modifications necessary. Most people are better off finding someone who has it figured out.

 

[amg1]

You probably wont get any in depth technical information on these forums. If you are just tring to help your local tuner out in figuring out the 2015-16+ tuning i would suggest going direct to the manufacture of the software your tuner uses. Some software manufactures have there own information resources that they can direct you to for questions or situations you need help with.

There are many tables and parameters that have effects on each other. Along side sensor input values the ECU uses a number of flow models and speed density calculations that involve very high level math and physics to understand. It is much easier for someone who isn't having luck with their current tuner and doesn't want to figure it out them self's to just go with another tuner who does have it figured out. As an example the throttle body model uses three parameters. Effective area, vacuum, and throttle angle. To figure this out you would need to calculate the area of the throttle blade then calculate the effective area which would be how the area changes as the blade rotates from zero degrees(closed) to 90 degrees(open). The effective area Isn't the blade, but the area that air can flow through the opening so you need to look at the area of the throttle body minus the area of the throttle blade at given angle. If your throttle blade is oval or you have two blades that just adds to the complexity of the math that is involved. After figuring out the angle/ effective area relationship you could use the sensor values to get the vacuum values, but that would be cutting yourself short. If you wanted to be as accurate as possible you would need to use a compressible fluid dynamics formula with the effective area and any other variables the formula requires and get the amount of air at given angles that can flow through the throttle body. If you know this and understand the speed density calculations you can calculate the vacuum in the manifold. This is just the model of the throttle body in a very simple explanation. The driver demand is based on torque, RPM, and throttle angle. as you can see both use throttle angle and torque(not easy to guess at) is another variable used in many tables. This shows you that if you change the throttle body in order to get the benefits of it with out sacrifice you would need to modify all of these tables correctly.

So basically you need a very extensive background in physics and math in order to understand the ECU and how physical modification will effect the values. You definitely can just go at it blind with small tweaks of different tables and see what the sensors say, but this will take you much much longer to figure out all the modifications necessary. Most people are better off finding someone who has it figured out.

Didn't know our ecu was this complicated. Given the information you just mention about calculating area. Then yes a tuner would def need to know physics and math to understand how the edu calculates throttle opening.

So someone def need to brush up on y=(fx) or area under the curve.:doh:

 

[markmurfie]

Didn't know our ecu was this complicated. Given the information you just mention about calculating area. Then yes a tuner would def need to know physics and math to understand how the edu calculates throttle opening.

So someone def need to brush up on y=(fx) or area under the curve.:doh:

calculus the shortcut to algebra. That's why the ecu uses it, it's easier. The TB is just the start of the complexity.

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