So the new gen7 whipple numbers are out........

[Angrey]

I've seen you say Dodge a few times. Which Dodges can't be tuned?

The Dodge's were locked from the challenger unveiling. You can get a jail broken PCM and tune it that way, but you absolutely void the warranty as there's other systems that will recognize and store codes concerning the conflict. So your choices aren't exactly great, send off your PCM to be permanently modified or buy a separate broken PCM and do the install, either way, your warranty is definitely gone out the window. (not that this is a huge consideration admittedly).

Technically they didn't crack it, they simply wipe the OS and install a replacement for you on your PCM that's open and available for manipulation.

NOT exactly the same as reflashing a S550 PCM and having the ability to reflash it back to stock later with the unit remaining in place in the car.

A more nuanced aspect would be if you're simply wanting to update a tune for a mild build, you have to go through the headache and expense of a broken PCM.

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[wazslow]

The Dodge's were locked from the challenger unveiling. You can get a jail broken PCM and tune it that way, but you absolutely void the warranty as there's other systems that will recognize and store codes concerning the conflict. So your choices aren't exactly great, send off your PCM to be permanently modified or buy a separate broken PCM and do the install, either way, your warranty is definitely gone out the window. (not that this is a huge consideration admittedly).

Technically they didn't crack it, they simply wipe the OS and install a replacement for you on your PCM that's open and available for manipulation.

NOT exactly the same as reflashing a S550 PCM and having the ability to reflash it back to stock later with the unit remaining in place in the car.

A more nuanced aspect would be if you're simply wanting to update a tune for a mild build, you have to go through the headache and expense of a broken PCM.

While I agree with what you are saying. You have been able to tune Dodge products for years, just maybe not as easily as in the past. You void the factory warranty when tuning any of these cars, so I am not sure why that is a concern.

Your drive train warranty is void even with a Whipple or Roush. You can buy a supplemental warranty through Whipple or Roush, buts certainly not a factory warranty longer.

 

[Angrey]

While I agree with what you are saying. You have been able to tune Dodge products for years, just maybe not as easily as in the past. You void the factory warranty when tuning any of these cars, so I am not sure why that is a concern.

Your drive train warranty is void even with a Whipple or Roush. You can buy a supplemental warranty through Whipple or Roush, buts certainly not a factory warranty longer.

Plenty of people tune an S550 and can return it back to stock. Some get away with it, some not, about the only way a dealer can recognize you've done that is through the ignition cycles and the mileage. Point is, you don't need to send off your PCM to get jailbroken or buy a whole second PCM just to do a tune for headers and intake and E85.

Shades of the issue for sure, but can you tune a Dodge? Yes, just not as easily and openly as the S550 or S197 or SN95.

This all contributes to how much "enthusiasm" for after market modifications a car platform will have. Obviously the best scenario for everyone (consumers and suppliers) is for completely open. Can you get around stuff? Sure, but the fact that they haven't been able to "crack" the tune and simply reflash certain parts of it with the unit remaining in place is part of this story.

And as I pointed out earlier, maybe Tremec just has better geeks. Their encryption seems to have everyone stumped, Ford AND GM.

I'll return to this thread from time to time with any new developments, but we've covered most of this ground already. I'm going to resurrect this thread every January until the new '24 platform is "cracked." I suspect it'll be an annual ritual for some time.

 

[shogun32]

I suspect it'll be an annual ritual for some time.

Just need more fervent Worshippers of Baal, or practitioners of Voodoo to join the effort.

And yes the Dodge throws a P1400 code and it gets embedded everywhere. Some tuners are so stupid they think 'masking' it is the same as 'deleting' it. Nope. Like Pepperidge Farm, Mopar always knows.

 

[Jasonb543]

Well VMP ran 9.99 @ 142 with just a stage 2 kit and 19” nitto 555r2.
Much better to see, with exhaust, converter and a drag pack low 9s will be the norm.

Probably gonna order their kit now. They said 4-6 weeks and they’ll be shipping out.
I know beefcake has a kit going on a more drag setup car… looking to see him run 9.5s @ 146

That’s good enough for a fun street cruiser for me.

 

[DougS550]

From what I can gather, the test mule DH on new Whipple kit put out 713 rwhp.

All I can say is DAYUM. Talk about the end of an era. I can't imagine dropping $60k and another $10k on top to end up with 713 rwhp.

If you know any hackers or dark web operatives tell them to get going on cracking the Ford vehicle management system.

Maybe we'll see more and cheaper standalone options come from this (that don't require a separate display). Does anyone even offer a 16 port stand alone for DI/PI late model motors at this point?

I'm sorry, I know all the major businesses and usual suspects in our industry are trying to salvage what a wonderful world we lived in, but honestly, if 713 is the best it's going to get, I'd have probably just left my isht stock.

I have to agree. When Lethal got so excited about the "Big Numbers" on their new Mustang, when they showed the numbers, to me they were very disappointing to say the least. And their 1/4 mile runs were even less impressive. Am I missing something here? Rent the Previous Gen 3 faster with better HP numbers.

 

[robvas]

 

[DougS550]

Stand corrected. I watched the Lethal Vid.

 

[Rolls]

I thought the GT500 was down to just the launch RPM limit, (which I know is one of the things that MOTEC resolves, allowing the user to input whatever launch rpm they wish, rather than being restricted to a max of 3200 rpms). I hadn't heard they're still dealing with limp issues or any other things with the trans in manual mode.

It's curious how they could "crack" the C8 PCM but the TCM for both manufacturers remains inaccessible. Tremec must have better geeks

The launch RPM limit can be adjusted via the PCM with PCMTEC. There is a debug offset so if you set it to 3000 and set the offset to +500 rpm it would allow you to launch at 3500 rpm etc.

I know that PBD had lots of success with it.

I am just thinking out loud here, but I have been ruminating on this thread and your input on it for several days now. I am wondering how feasible, if at all, would it be to get a Gen4 car and retrofit it with a Gen 3 PCM and run it and tune it that way? I am sure there are a few features that may not be supported, but for those that want a Gen4 car, but also have the ability to tune it unencumbered by the nanny state, could this be a solution?

It wouldn't be impossible but you'd likely have to replace every module in the car along with the PCM. It would be easier to get a S650 interior/body kit for your S550.

I suspect whoever cracks the S650 first will likely use some kind of PCM swap (which will be riddled with issues initially). There are smart people out there, however the kind of people who can do this kind of work usually go work for 3 letter agencies and get paid half a million dollars a year instead so they have no motivation to crack cars.

 

[rolfe.oliver]

One thing seems to be clear: The Gen 6 Whipple is superior to Gen 5 Whipple.

That said, the S650 is handcuffed. Whipple is the only show in town. Now they have the private label deals with VMP and Lethal. As others have said, they have to get this blower to sell. This is the end of the road until calibrations are unlocked. Sure, you can pulley down until you hit the injector limit (unless there are hidden torque limits, etc.), but that is about it. The days of buying a mustang on Day 1 and going 10s, 9s, 8s, and 7s are over. 10r car with Whipple and octane booster will probably go a peak of 9.6 with weight reduction. That is it.

No need for axles, fuel systems, injectors, etc.

2023 and under will be king, unless tuning is opened. No offense, but the Whipple tune has never been the preferred tune for those wanting to go fast.

 

[Angrey]

One thing seems to be clear: The Gen 6 Whipple is superior to Gen 5 Whipple.

That said, the S650 is handcuffed. Whipple is the only show in town. Now they have the private label deals with VMP and Lethal. As others have said, they have to get this blower to sell. This is the end of the road until calibrations are unlocked. Sure, you can pulley down until you hit the injector limit (unless there are hidden torque limits, etc.), but that is about it. The days of buying a mustang on Day 1 and going 10s, 9s, 8s, and 7s are over. 10r car with Whipple and octane booster will probably go a peak of 9.6 with weight reduction. That is it.

No need for axles, fuel systems, injectors, etc.

2023 and under will be king, unless tuning is opened. No offense, but the Whipple tune has never been the preferred tune for those wanting to go fast.

We'd always expect the next gen to be superior, as we've seen with Gen3, 4, etc.

At the power levels discussed, what's curious is that we're well within the capabilities of the gen5. I find it highly unlikely any significant gains are a result from blower improvements (the only apples/apples comparison would be significant efficiency gains). Or said another way, the Gen5 can produce those numbers if you change the pulley size.

As you pointed out, what I think we're seeing play out is a marketing effort to make the S650 look "better" but in fairness, all that's achievable (and more) with the S550. If Whipple was able to squeeze more out of the 50 state legal tune OR they're simply showing the Stage 2 hopped up on a bunch of fuel additive (again, to prop things up and make them seem more attractive).

The reality is, anything the Gen6 can do on pump gas, the Gen5 is capable of doing. The only difference being MAYBE some minor improvements via efficiency. The question becomes, did whipple improve the calibration for the S1/S2 in the new S650 package? And that would actually be a fair improvement if you were saddled with only the whipple calibration. (i.e. you bought a whipple package on pump gas for the S550 that puts out XXX rwhp and now with the new package they're putting out a little more.)

I don't think the magic here is with the Gen6 whipple, if anything it's a combo of squeezing more with the whipple calibration and/or an ass load of fuel conditioner.

 

[rolfe.oliver]

We'd always expect the next gen to be superior, as we've seen with Gen3, 4, etc.

At the power levels discussed, what's curious is that we're well within the capabilities of the gen5. I find it highly unlikely any significant gains are a result from blower improvements (the only apples/apples comparison would be significant efficiency gains). Or said another way, the Gen5 can produce those numbers if you change the pulley size.

As you pointed out, what I think we're seeing play out is a marketing effort to make the S650 look "better" but in fairness, all that's achievable (and more) with the S550. If Whipple was able to squeeze more out of the 50 state legal tune OR they're simply showing the Stage 2 hopped up on a bunch of fuel additive (again, to prop things up and make them seem more attractive).

The reality is, anything the Gen6 can do on pump gas, the Gen5 is capable of doing. The only difference being MAYBE some minor improvements via efficiency. The question becomes, did whipple improve the calibration for the S1/S2 in the new S650 package? And that would actually be a fair improvement if you were saddled with only the whipple calibration. (i.e. you bought a whipple package on pump gas for the S550 that puts out XXX rwhp and now with the new package they're putting out a little more.)

I don't think the magic here is with the Gen6 whipple, if anything it's a combo of squeezing more with the whipple calibration and/or an ass load of fuel conditioner.

I completely agree. The only gen 6 Whipple I have seen on a non S650 is Garret Mitchell's F150 (Cleetus), which seems to be the same as a Gen 5 Whipple, power wise.

Whipple/Lethal already got caught trying to pump up "Pump Gas" numbers, which used octane booster. And now VMP may have done the same thing. I see it all as marketing hype. You can go back and see Gen 3 S550s running the same or better numbers with the gen 5 Whipple.

Lund went 9.6 with E85 and a 3.6 pulley, and 10.2 with a 3.8 pulley. Lethal (with Lund tuning) went 9.6 with their manual Whipple front-feed 2.9 blower back in 2015.

Others have gone the same and faster. The point is that everything right now is heavily hyped because it is the only option.

 

[Angrey]

I completely agree. The only gen 6 Whipple I have seen on a non S650 is Garret Mitchell's F150 (Cleetus), which seems to be the same as a Gen 5 Whipple, power wise.

Whipple/Lethal already got caught trying to pump up "Pump Gas" numbers, which used octane booster. And now VMP may have done the same thing. I see it all as marketing hype. You can go back and see Gen 3 S550s running the same or better numbers with the gen 5 Whipple.

Lund went 9.6 with E85 and a 3.6 pulley, and 10.2 with a 3.8 pulley. Lethal (with Lund tuning) went 9.6 with their manual Whipple front-feed 2.9 blower back in 2015.

Others have gone the same and faster. The point is that everything right now is heavily hyped because it is the only option.

I can't fault them for it. Their very livelihoods are at stake. I wrote earlier, I'd be cultivating other paths (i.e. the stand alone partnership). Whipple almost certainly has restrictions of that type of venture simply based upon their agreement with FOMOCO and maybe by extension VMP and Lethal (I'm sure there's some tentacles in flow down from the Whipple-Ford agreement).

If I had built up a supply/vendor empire that relied heavily upon the status quo of open tuning and wild race builds and components, I'd be partnering with Holly, Fueltech, Halltech, Motec, one of them to develop a workaround if the S650 computer turns up to be either uncrackable or prohibitively problematic even with cracking.

It's not controversial to say the reason you don't see many blower C8s on the road is this very issue.

Imagine a world where the computer is locked, but no worries, you can buy an even more sophisticated management system, parts, installation and tuning for under $2k. Now all the sudden, it goes back to what it was.........people buying triple pump fuel systems and 2k hp axles and parachutes and roll cages and upgraded differential bolts and on and on and on.

If 850 hp and mid 9's is the best you're ever going to get, then a bunch of that stuff goes out the window.

The OTHER path I'd be cultivating is whichever car/platform is the new goto for modifications. I'd be selling to BMW, Audi groups, etc, etc.

The go fast community is going to gravitate toward the best value (bang/buck) cars that allow to make it go fast and allow them to fully customize. Maybe that's not the mustang going foward. Maybe that's some other car? Who knows.

 

[rolfe.oliver]

I can't fault them for it. Their very livelihoods are at stake. I wrote earlier, I'd be cultivating other paths (i.e. the stand alone partnership). Whipple almost certainly has restrictions of that type of venture simply based upon their agreement with FOMOCO and maybe by extension VMP and Lethal (I'm sure there's some tentacles in flow down from the Whipple-Ford agreement).

If I had built up a supply/vendor empire that relied heavily upon the status quo of open tuning and wild race builds and components, I'd be partnering with Holly, Fueltech, Halltech, Motec, one of them to develop a workaround if the S650 computer turns up to be either uncrackable or prohibitively problematic even with cracking.

It's not controversial to say the reason you don't see many blower C8s on the road is this very issue.

Imagine a world where the computer is locked, but no worries, you can buy an even more sophisticated management system, parts, installation and tuning for under $2k. Now all the sudden, it goes back to what it was.........people buying triple pump fuel systems and 2k hp axles and parachutes and roll cages and upgraded differential bolts and on and on and on.

If 850 hp and mid 9's is the best you're ever going to get, then a bunch of that stuff goes out the window.

The OTHER path I'd be cultivating is whichever car/platform is the new goto for modifications. I'd be selling to BMW, Audi groups, etc, etc.

The go fast community is going to gravitate toward the best value (bang/buck) cars that allow to make it go fast and allow them to fully customize. Maybe that's not the mustang going foward. Maybe that's some other car? Who knows.

I agree, IF standalones got to that point, but we are a world away. Part of the allure of the coyote platform was that you can go from dealership to 11s, 10s, 9s., 8s, 7s, and now 6s with a factory computer. People could put on a blower and fuel system and go 8s relatively easy. Changing computers and leaving the Ford operating system is unattractive to 99& of people at this point because they aren't there yet.

The big dogs use MOTEC because it is the most sophisticated and has proven itself.

 

[engineermike]

We'd always expect the next gen to be superior, as we've seen with Gen3, 4, etc.

At the power levels discussed, what's curious is that we're well within the capabilities of the gen5. I find it highly unlikely any significant gains are a result from blower improvements (the only apples/apples comparison would be significant efficiency gains). Or said another way, the Gen5 can produce those numbers if you change the pulley size.

As you pointed out, what I think we're seeing play out is a marketing effort to make the S650 look "better" but in fairness, all that's achievable (and more) with the S550. If Whipple was able to squeeze more out of the 50 state legal tune OR they're simply showing the Stage 2 hopped up on a bunch of fuel additive (again, to prop things up and make them seem more attractive).

The reality is, anything the Gen6 can do on pump gas, the Gen5 is capable of doing. The only difference being MAYBE some minor improvements via efficiency. The question becomes, did whipple improve the calibration for the S1/S2 in the new S650 package? And that would actually be a fair improvement if you were saddled with only the whipple calibration. (i.e. you bought a whipple package on pump gas for the S550 that puts out XXX rwhp and now with the new package they're putting out a little more.)

I don't think the magic here is with the Gen6 whipple, if anything it's a combo of squeezing more with the whipple calibration and/or an ass load of fuel conditioner.

I don't want to fall into the trap of poo-poo'ing the new stuff because I just so happen to have the [now] old stuff. I really don't like when people automatically bash new stuff because usually in the end, it turns out to be better.

But....physics and thermo cannot be defeated, as hard as we try.

I'm sure the Gen6 blower is better than Gen5, just as I'm sure the Gen4(?) Coyote is better than the Gen3.

But if we do some basic math here...these blowers are in the 80% efficiency range. As you approach 100%, the gains are harder and harder to realize. If you do the math on the power it takes to compress 1700 cfm of air to 10 or 12 psi, you get numbers around 80 hp at 100% efficiency. Therefore, at 80% efficiency this rises to about 100 hp. It's not hard to see that there's not much blood left in this turnip. If Whipple somehow found 10% efficiency, then that would be about a 10 hp gain. There could be more if a lower charge temp afforded more spark timing, but the Gen5 whipple intercooler worked so well it wouldn't make much difference by the time it got to the cylinders.

So the Gen4 Coyote, as far as I know, has an improved TB setup, intake manifold, exhaust cams, and maybe the exhaust manifolds are a tad better. Of course, the TB and manifold makes no difference when adding a PD blower, so that leaves the exhaust cams and manifolds.

Oh, and the S650 is heavier.

So are we to believe that a blower efficiency improvement (<10 hp), slightly larger exhaust cams, and slightly improved exhaust manifolds makes up for the added weight and still pulls 5-10 more mph, making 100 or 150 more rwhp? That's a hard one for me to swallow.

To take it a step further, I think the torque numbers give it away. It's been published for many decades that BMEP can be used as a "yardstick" to determine if engine output claims are BS. Well, for us that boils down to peak torque output. These engines are knock-limited on pump gas so the peak torque is capped at whatever cylinder pressure and temperature it can sustain without knock. That limit usually happens around 600 ftlb at the wheels. I've found it myself on the dyno several times on several different pulley sizes as well. Now suddenly we're seeing 630-660 with pullies that used to make 560-580. That's more like E85 numbers. At the same airflow/rpm (boost), displacement, and the timing, the torque would be the same. The only piece of this equation we don't know is the timing. Based on the torque numbers, I highly doubt it's hitting the 17-17.5 deg timing cap that Whipple has run in the past.

Personally, I have no doubt that the octane they're running is much higher than 93. The mystery to me is how they're "safely" getting the extra timing into the motor on an emissions tune that everyone will supposedly be running. There are 2 ways I can think of, being 1) allow a lot of timing like 21+ deg and let the knock sensors keep it "safe" on pump gas, or 2) calibrate and use octane adjust which hasn't really been done since Gen2 Coyote. I suppose it's possible that the knock algorithm is improved on the Gen4 Coyote so they're comfortable running it into knock every time they go WOT, but who knows at this point....

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