2018 Performance Pack - A big step BACKWARDS

[Norm Peterson]

Yes they do care. Avg. transaction price is a big thing in the industry and is an indicator of brand value, particularly when comparing cars in the same segment.

Sounds like while they don't actually condone dealership ADM practices, they aren't exactly 100% opposed to them either?



Heh . . . I'll see your Milliken and raise you two Dixons . . . college-level texts, and not first-year either.


Norm

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[BmacIL]

Sounds like while they don't actually condone dealership ADM practices, they aren't exactly 100% opposed to them either?



Heh . . . I'll see your Milliken and raise you two Dixons . . . college-level texts, and not first-year either.


Norm

Reasonable ADM isn't opposed too much. $100,000+ GT350Rs and $80,000+ GT350s though...

 

[saf1]

I own this book, and have used it practically as well as for education alone. It's very dry reading and a lot of what's there is based on a so-called "bicycle model", but the physics is good.

I was actually being serious about math is fun. Apologies if it came across negative/snotty. Wasn't my intent.

 

[tommyd]

Car companies can make more money financing the car than what they sell it for

 

[thePill]

This makes the $4000 price (really 6000 with 301A) make even less sense. If the 18 base is basically a 17 PP, what are we getting for the extra $4K other than tires? Again, the parts bin difference between the two can't be more than a few hundred bucks. Unless there is some magic sauce that has not been revealed yet, it doesn't seem to make sense.

I paid $36,800 for a 2011 Brembo GT Premium w/ 401a (before taxes). I pre-ordered on 8 March, 2010 so no rebate.

Today, for a 460hp 2018 GT Performance Package w/ 301a I would pay $42,000 and some change. Unless I need to option the Premium...

If a 5% price increase scares you in this market, you probably shouldn't be shopping. This is usually when someone opts for the Ecoboost, which is actually a better car to start racing in. Another thing to keep in mind, I am positive Ford retuned the chassis to handle the extra power. Nothing truly carries over if additional output was achieved. They need to recert and retest and that's what they do. Overall performance wise, a base 18 w/ tires will probably send a '17GTPP to the drawing board. That is just the benefit of power.


For the huge improvements made to the styling and the performance increase, you may not need the bells and whistles. The Performance Pack is meant for those that Track, I guess the 301a gives you options to build on that.

Overall, the Mustang is priced to kill its competitor off for good. The first time in history the base Mustang and Corvette came with the same output. A lot of things on the Camaro's TO DO list now. The GT350 hasn't had a proper answer yet. The Camaro was able to compete with the Stingray and now the Mustang has potential to beat the 1LE with its GT. A very sound business strategy...

 

[Spart]

I feel like some dumb speculation has gotten repeated over and over to the point of gospel.

#1, that the 18 GT is equivalent in handling to the 15-17 GT PP. This... seems unlikely. It's not getting many (any?) of the PP components, most importantly tires. If there's any kernel of truth to this, it's that the 18 may have an equivalent lap time to the old GT PP. But if this is the case, it's probably down to the power increase and 10R80 trans, and it's probably a best case scenario (track that favors power.) I severely doubt that it's capable of putting down the same lateral G as the 15-17 GT PP.

#2, that there is a PP2 coming. I haven't seen this stated by Ford. As far as I can tell, that rumor was started on this forum. If there's any kernel of truth to this, it's that magneride is only available with the PP.

#3, that the GT PP might somehow be a 1LE fighter. Again this... seems unlikely. You're going to need sticky, wide tires to fight the 1LE. The 1LE tires are more comparable to what the GT350R is on (200ish treadwear, similar widths.) But the GT PP is going to come with Michelin PS4S tires in the same size from the 15-17 GT PP. These are great tires. In fact, I swapped my factory GT PP set for a square 285/35 MPSS. Love them. But I know what they are: a 300 treadwear tire that's about as good as a long-wearing street tire can be. They're not the ultimate in grip. In fact, I suspect that the 18 GT PP won't have a huge improvement in lateral grip when it comes to testing over the 15-17 GT PP. Having swapped to MPSS myself, I will say that I haven't gotten any more grip at the extreme. What I have is more consistent grip. On a warm day (or I would imagine with sufficient heating on a track) the P Zeros could indeed be quite sticky. But they were temperamental bastards and only lasted me 5000 miles.

Anyway, I went looking for what Ford has actually said about suspension changes. It's not much.

From this press release:

On all models, new shock absorbers make for better ride control, a new cross-axis joint in the rear suspension leads to increased lateral stiffness, and innovative stabilizer bars bring sharper response and handling.

MagneRide damper technology is a new option with the Mustang Performance Package to optimize ride and handling in all situations.

So the non-PP cars are getting different dampers and sway bars. Yeah, that's not going to equate to 15-17 PP performance.

And of course there's the build and price guide, and the leaked order guide. Both indicate that the 15-17 PP line items are carrying over, which means at the very least those items haven't trickled down to the base cars. What's new are the Michelins, a 3.55 Torsen for the 10R80 cars, a wing you can delete and the unlocked magneride option.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I was actually being serious about math is fun. Apologies if it came across negative/snotty.

Didn't take it that way. Wouldn't have still been in engineering when I retired if it wasn't.


Spart - compound trumps section width . . .


Norm

 

[TomcatDriver]

#2, that there is a PP2 coming. I haven't seen this stated by Ford. As far as I can tell, that rumor was started on this forum. If there's any kernel of truth to this, it's that magneride is only available with the PP.

All good except the Performance Pack level 2 673 has been stated by Ford. In the order guide it's listed as late availability Job 1 + 90 and about the only thing we really know about it is it is mutually exclusive with the regular PP 67G.

Now what's in PP2 is pure speculation.

 

[BmacIL]

I feel like some dumb speculation has gotten repeated over and over to the point of gospel.

#1, that the 18 GT is equivalent in handling to the 15-17 GT PP. This... seems unlikely. It's not getting many (any?) of the PP components, most importantly tires. If there's any kernel of truth to this, it's that the 18 may have an equivalent lap time to the old GT PP. But if this is the case, it's probably down to the power increase and 10R80 trans, and it's probably a best case scenario (track that favors power.) I severely doubt that it's capable of putting down the same lateral G as the 15-17 GT PP.

#2, that there is a PP2 coming. I haven't seen this stated by Ford. As far as I can tell, that rumor was started on this forum. If there's any kernel of truth to this, it's that magneride is only available with the PP.

#3, that the GT PP might somehow be a 1LE fighter. Again this... seems unlikely. You're going to need sticky, wide tires to fight the 1LE. The 1LE tires are more comparable to what the GT350R is on (200ish treadwear, similar widths.) But the GT PP is going to come with Michelin PS4S tires in the same size from the 15-17 GT PP. These are great tires. In fact, I swapped my factory GT PP set for a square 285/35 MPSS. Love them. But I know what they are: a 300 treadwear tire that's about as good as a long-wearing street tire can be. They're not the ultimate in grip. In fact, I suspect that the 18 GT PP won't have a huge improvement in lateral grip when it comes to testing over the 15-17 GT PP. Having swapped to MPSS myself, I will say that I haven't gotten any more grip at the extreme. What I have is more consistent grip. On a warm day (or I would imagine with sufficient heating on a track) the P Zeros could indeed be quite sticky. But they were temperamental bastards and only lasted me 5000 miles.

Anyway, I went looking for what Ford has actually said about suspension changes. It's not much.

From this press release:



So the non-PP cars are getting different dampers and sway bars. Yeah, that's not going to equate to 15-17 PP performance.

And of course there's the build and price guide, and the leaked order guide. Both indicate that the 15-17 PP line items are carrying over, which means at the very least those items haven't trickled down to the base cars. What's new are the Michelins, a 3.55 Torsen for the 10R80 cars, a wing you can delete and the unlocked magneride option.

No one said anything about speed. Handling is not speed. The biggest shortcoming dynamically of the non PP GT for 15-17 was the uberplushness and boat-like feeling when you pushed it hard. This was mostly from the dampers and slightly softer springs, but also the lack of chassis bracing. Springs and dampers make a huge difference in how the car feels to drive. The tires will still be the limiting factor for speed and grip, but with the equivalent of the old PP suspension components, the base GT will actually drive well in all configurations. It was embarrassing in stock form. My old Honda Accord coupe was better.

 

[Erock503]

Yes they do care. Avg. transaction price is a big thing in the industry and is an indicator of brand value, particularly when comparing cars in the same segment.

I see, that does make sense. that also explains some of the numbers I've seen from bills of sale, where the trade in and down payment are way more than the actual amount exchanging hands. Makes it look like they hit the msrp that way.

 

[slag1911]

... but with the equivalent of the old PP suspension components, the base GT will actually drive well in all configurations.

Again, more hyperbole... this is what the PR actually stated:

On all models, new shock absorbers make for better ride control, a new cross-axis joint in the rear suspension leads to increased lateral stiffness, and innovative stabilizer bars bring sharper response and handling.

Based on the marketing speak of that PR, for all we know the 18 non PP may drive like granddad's Buick instead of grandma's Cadillac, if that. :doh:

 

[Spart]

All good except the Performance Pack level 2 673 has been stated by Ford. In the order guide it's listed as late availability Job 1 + 90 and about the only thing we really know about it is it is mutually exclusive with the regular PP 67G.

Now what's in PP2 is pure speculation.

Okay, I stand corrected on my second point. See this thread.

In particular see this pic, this pic, and this pic.

It would appear that the PP Level 2 673 as mentioned is a separate package from the PP 67G. It will have 19x9.5 and 19x10 staggered wheels and cloth Recaros.

Speculation is that this is the PP Level 2 wheel (process of elimination)

I stand by my other points!

Spart - compound trumps section width . . .

I agree, which is why I pointed out that the 1LE has compound that's more comparable to the GT350R than what the new PP has. Expecting 1LE performance out of the Michelin PS4S is madness!

No one said anything about speed. Handling is not speed. The biggest shortcoming dynamically of the non PP GT for 15-17 was the uberplushness and boat-like feeling when you pushed it hard. This was mostly from the dampers and slightly softer springs, but also the lack of chassis bracing. Springs and dampers make a huge difference in how the car feels to drive. The tires will still be the limiting factor for speed and grip, but with the equivalent of the old PP suspension components, the base GT will actually drive well in all configurations. It was embarrassing in stock form. My old Honda Accord coupe was better.

I think you misunderstand me. It keeps getting parroted that the 18+ cars are at the level of the 15-17 PP, whatever that means. I was just pointing out that if there's a kernel of truth to this (and I've still yet to see where anyone has referenced Ford on this statement) it's that the facelift cars have more power, so on a track, all else equal, they'd be faster.

I remain unconvinced that Ford will eliminate the "boat-like feeling" you describe from the base cars. They have to cater to the olds as well as the rest of us.

 

[68fbjjz109]

In my ideal world, the PP2 would be a base GT w/ a tweaked PP suspension, larger rubber, rear brembo's, magneride, recaros, select exhaust, rear seat delete, and a revised tune / GT350 intake/TB.

A bump to 480HP and a weight reduction of 100 pounds... that would be interesting.

Man a 100 pounds is alot on top of more brake, tire, wheel, active exhaust ect.

I have done the GT350R RSD, GT350R seats, pulled engine covers, sound tube, trunk junk, and trunk floor and I think I am at 70 -75 lbs saved.

I could get to 100 with new wheels and tires.

I feel like the package you mentioned is $7500. But it would whoop up on the 1LE.


I have seen what looked to be a PP2 mule around my house. They are definitely more aggressively looking. Seemed lower, with wider from and rear tires. It was silver, with atleast a black passenger side fender.

It really helped fill out the front of the 18 fascia.

 

[TomcatDriver]

It would appear that the PP Level 2 673 as mentioned is a separate package from the PP 67G. It will have 19x9.5 and 19x10 staggered wheels and cloth Recaros.

Remains to be seen. PP Level 2 is an option for both the base and premium.

 

[Spart]

Remains to be seen. PP Level 2 is an option for both the base and premium.

See this pic, it specifically mentions cloth Recaros on the PP Level 2 and 301A.

So who knows what will come with the Premium. It would make sense if it was leather Recaros. But currently, the cloth Recaro option is MIA for 2018.

ETA: I guess there's the additional possibility that the 2018 Cloth Recaro isn't something we've seen before and is bespoke to the PP2 on both base and premium. Just idle speculation.

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