2015-2016 Tech Pack and Base GT350 Cooler Solution Discussion

[V8Stang15]

I'm not super-savvy with this stuff but I always found transmission and engine oil debates pointless when you have a manufacturer telling you what to use. You don't think they've chosen the best oils to use in their engine/Trans that likely cost them tens of millions of dollars between being engineered, built, and tested? Plus, they warranty these vehicles for track use using these oils.

I don't know. There may be something to switching the oils, but I'd need a lot of data to convince me to go against the manufacturer's suggested oils.

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[Leonard]

You know they get just as hot, GT350 aero may add /trap some additional heat but no sensor, no problem.

I doubt the GT gets as hot. First, the airflow under the car isnt as controlled as the gt350. Second MT82 isnt packaged as tightly and also has what amount to fins on the bottom side of the casting where there will be better airflow. Third no 8250 redline.

More airflow + more surface area in said airflow = more heat dissipation. Less revs = less heat generation.

 

[Hack]

Ford will specify what Tremec has design their transmissions to use. Here are the reasons from the Tremec engineers for the ATF:
Automatic transmission fluids provide the necessary protection and lubrication, while still allowing the synchronizer to function at its best. A hypoid gear oil by design does not allow mechanical surfaces to make contact with one another. A synchronizer relies on friction (much like your car's brakes) to do its job. Thus, gear oil in a synchronized transmission can be a bad combination, potentially causing a variety of shift issues. Furthermore, many gear oils contain sulfur additives that can damage friction materials. Synthetic fluid can contain powerful detergents and additives that can prove harmful to your transmission's synchronizers. While many synthetic fluids perform very well, in most cases, they are not recommend. Furthermore, they may void your warranty.

Good post. I agree - my first question when people start talking about transmission fluid is how the synchronizers (blocker rings) are constructed. Some blocker rings have friction material on them which can be thought of as similar to the clutches in an automatic transmission. More detergent is needed to keep the friction material working properly so that the speed of the gears are accelerated/decelerated quickly and the transmission shifts well.

 

[Optimum Performance]

Ford will specify what Tremec has design their transmissions to use. Here are the reasons from the Tremec engineers for the ATF:
Automatic transmission fluids provide the necessary protection and lubrication, while still allowing the synchronizer to function at its best. A hypoid gear oil by design does not allow mechanical surfaces to make contact with one another. A synchronizer relies on friction (much like your car's brakes) to do its job. Thus, gear oil in a synchronized transmission can be a bad combination, potentially causing a variety of shift issues. Furthermore, many gear oils contain sulfur additives that can damage friction materials. Synthetic fluid can contain powerful detergents and additives that can prove harmful to your transmission's synchronizers. While many synthetic fluids perform very well, in most cases, they are not recommend. Furthermore, they may void your warranty.

I'm not super-savvy with this stuff but I always found transmission and engine oil debates pointless when you have a manufacturer telling you what to use. You don't think they've chosen the best oils to use in their engine/Trans that likely cost them tens of millions of dollars between being engineered, built, and tested? Plus, they warranty these vehicles for track use using these oils.

I don't know. There may be something to switching the oils, but I'd need a lot of data to convince me to go against the manufacturer's suggested oils.

Manufacturers use whatever will meet the minimum standards set by engineering that they can negotiate JIT and Cost. As long as it will allow a vehicle sub system to make it to the end of the warranty period, it's low cost and avaialble to support the dealer network that is all they are interested in.

As far as qualifications go Manufacturers submit products to industry standard testing acceptance, i.e. Engine Oils need to meet SH, SI, SJ standards to be used in modern cars.

Because Ford has in recent years, begun using fluids that are not common many manufacturers will not spend the $$$ to have them qualified because the market is so small. Perfect example is Dual Clutch Transmission Fluid (DCT) used in the Mustang MT82 transmission. Amsoil, Royal Purple, BG all make and the public uses these quality products as replacements.

I have heard of ZERO cases where Ford has pushed back a claim due to the oil used in a MT82 transmission. I have hundreds of customers using BG Syncro Shift all over the world without issue.

To the point raised about the fluids used having the correct properties to be used in a modern transmission. MTL, from Redline got its claim to fame in the 90's because it was one of the first transmission fluids that provided the proper coeffiecient of friction for modern syncronized transmissions while also having the proper viscosity.

BG Syncro Shift (please see attached PDF for BG's exact wording) is designed exclusively for transmissions that required ATF as a factory fill. It's why I have hundreds of satisfied customers. It's also why very large Dealer franchises such as Bob Tasca use them in their service departments, as well as BG's fluid exchange equipment. My Selling dealer did not stock the Ford Fluids for the Mustang, they stocked BG products. My Corvette customer that runs in Optima was at his Chevy dealer and sent me a text "Guess what oil the parts and service dept. sells?" BG. The latest updated fluids from GM even use the same nomeclature on the bottles. BG has many OEM approvals including the original GM #12345349 Syncromesh Fluid (are you guys seeing the name similarities?) that was the only Tremec accepted fill for the original TKO 5 speeds.

The reason Tremec recommends ATF's is because it's thin enough to work well in cold weather, it has the friction properties for the syncros to grab properly...because ATF is designed for automatics that are full of wet clutches that need to grab the same way and share the same materials so it's self qualified. The OEM's obviously are going to require Tremec to make sure the transmission they supply is compatible with "X" fluid. ATF is always the safe choice. It just does a horrible job at temperature and has little additive protection from shear. It's cost effective for the OEM to use an off the shelf product.

Conventional Gear Oils (as used in the rear axle still) "Dinosaur Oil" do not work in any modern transmission, they will tyically damage the fiber blocker ring materials or just be so thick the scyncro with not ever slow down because it can not seat on the cone due to the film thickness. Great for gear protection bad for shifting. In the 90's I used to repair T5's that had the unfortunate experience of quick lube services. After dumping out the gear oil, replacing the blocker rings (20 min job) and handing the customer 2 fluid changes worth of MTL and a much smaller bill than expected because it wasn't "Blow Up" I feel I am qulified to say I know what I am talking about.

BG Syncro Shift II is an absolutely wonderful product that has made many an owner like their Mustang, Camaro, Corvette again. I have had customers try all of them and BG is usually the favorite. They are in the OEM's service departments for a reason.

I hope this clears up many of the concerns and mis-information that has been going around.

 

[Optimum Performance]

This is an excerpt from the troubleshooting guide from Ford for the MT82:

"Check Fluid Level and Condition
NOTICE: Excessive temperatures may break down the transmission lubricant. If there is reason to believe
the transmission has been subjected to temperatures exceeding 135°C (275°F) for an extended period
(greater than 20 minutes), change the lubricant immediately."

 

[mattlqx]

This is an excerpt from the troubleshooting guide from Ford for the MT82:

"Check Fluid Level and Condition
NOTICE: Excessive temperatures may break down the transmission lubricant. If there is reason to believe
the transmission has been subjected to temperatures exceeding 135°C (275°F) for an extended period
(greater than 20 minutes), change the lubricant immediately."

Well, at least the Tech pack does an admirable job of cutting off the fun before it reaches the specified threshold.

 

[montreal ponies]

Thanks for all the info Tommy.

 

[Tomster]

Well, at least the Tech pack does an admirable job of cutting off the fun before it reaches the specified threshold.

Spoken like a man without a tech (anymore)

 

[Leonard]

BG Syncro Shift II is an absolutely wonderful product that has made many an owner like their Mustang, Camaro, Corvette again. I have had customers try all of them and BG is usually the favorite. They are in the OEM's service departments for a reason.

I hope this clears up many of the concerns and mis-information that has been going around.

How do you feel about the additional viscosity of BG Syncro Shift II when transmission coolers are present? I'm assuming since it is thicker that it will increase the pressure. Do you feel it would impact the service life or performance of the gerotor pump in the track pack transmission? What about external electric pumps?

 

[Optimum Performance]

How do you feel about the additional viscosity of BG Syncro Shift II when transmission coolers are present? I'm assuming since it is thicker that it will increase the pressure. Do you feel it would impact the service life or performance of the gerotor pump in the track pack transmission? What about external electric pumps?

This is a inaccurate description but look at as going from a 5W-20 to a 5W-30.

ATF LV at 104F is a 29.6 Viscosity BG is a 37.85
ATF LV at 212F is a 6.0 Viscosity BG is a 7.11 so at normal operating temp. the pump does not 'see' a real difference

BG's additive package is designed for proper syncro operation as well as having better anti shear characteristics that ATF does not contain. The biggest improvement BG made in the MT82 was eliminating the cold gear nibble. When you operate it at higher temperatures the viscosity improvers maintain better film strength.

The poorly drawn graph attempts to show what I am trying to convey :shrug:

Green is a conventional 75W-90 Gear Oil (Rear Axle)
Purple or Blue is BG Syncro Shift
Orange is LV ATF

Even though Syncro Shift is blended to a 75W-80 it's additive package makes it act nothing like a conventional 75W-90 Gear Oil. It is higher in viscosity the an LV ATF but mirrors the properties of the ATF so it flows into the same places etc. while still providing a layer of protection for the mostly conventional "spur gear" design of a manual transmission.

I don't know if I confused everyone or helped you understand :headbonk:

 

[JN66]

Fellas - quick question.

Mine has overheated a few times (hwy and track) and I haven't quite figured yet if I have a better chance of it not overheating by shifting gears, or by keeping it in 3rd or 4th for extended periods of time.

Does shifting gears create additional heat? Or is it just the extended high rpms for time?

Thanks in advance.

 

[mattlqx]

Fellas - quick question.

Mine has overheated a few times (hwy and track) and I haven't quite figured yet if I have a better chance of it not overheating by shifting gears, or by keeping it in 3rd or 4th for extended periods of time.

Does shifting gears create additional heat? Or is it just the extended high rpms for time?

Thanks in advance.

It's the high revs that cause additional friction that generates the heat. Sure, disengaging and reengaging the clutch creates heat as well, but I don't think that's the main culprit, particularly if you're rev-matching rather than letting it do all the work.

 

[firestarter2]

It's the high revs that cause additional friction that generates the heat. Sure, disengaging and reengaging the clutch creates heat as well, but I don't think that's the main culprit, particularly if you're rev-matching rather than letting it do all the work.

Clutch shouldn't have any impact it's external to the tranny in the bell housing

 

[JN66]

Right. So running consistently at 4-5000rpms in third will initiate it.

Thanks fellas.

 

[shelbydave]

Right. So running consistently at 4-5000rpms in third will initiate it.

Thanks fellas.

Mine was doing it when going back n forth in 5th n 6th

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