Coyote engine oil for the track?

spiller said:

Porsche recommends 5w40 for the GT3. Interestingly, the oil cap on the GT reads 5w20 but Ford has advised 5w30 for cars in Australia to account for the warmer climate.

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If you contract Ford Performance they will tell you 5w50 for track use too.

spiller said:

Ford has advised 5w30 for cars in Australia to account for the warmer climate.

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According to that Must Tang cat, "there's no basis for the recommendation" and that it's just our own "pretzel logic" yet somehow Ford does it anyway.

Must_Tang said:

I don't know those answers, and neither do you. So we're back to the manufacturer recommendations then.

By all means, run what you want.

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OK, I am going to give this a try. Please do not take what I am saying as gospel but merely one guys advice after years of tracking many different makes and setups, and servicing nearly 25 different track cars for myself and other for many years. Everything from domestic, foreign, and exotic.

The problem with manufacturers recommendations is when you track your car you are most likely using it outside of the manufacturers design criteria and what they considered "normal" or even "severe" use. Remember manufacturers have to design for a large range of conditions and that effects their choices when recommending oil type. You would not use the same oil in an engine that sees only sub zero temps as you would an engine that sees only 90*+ temps. In the real world you need an oil that can do both temp ranges, that is likely going to be a compromise for an engine that operates at the extreme ends of the temperature range. Today's oils do a much better job of bridging the temperature range scale but there is not a perfect oil weight that can handle all temp conditions. There are oils that are better suited to a given temp range and generally a higher temp range requires a higher weight oil.

When a vehicle is prepped for track use you make many changes to effect both the performance and reliability of the car. If you do not take these changes into consideration into the maintenance of the vehicle you will pay a price in reliability.

You have to consider the manufacturers recommendations as a starting point and adjust your maintenance needs as the use of the car changes. I am not going to tell you what oil to run in your car, but I will tell you why I choose to run the oil I run.

Items that I factor into my decision on oil weight:
1. Engine RPM range of operation - I have raised the rev limiter on my engine to allow for better use of the gearing, as a result the engine RPM range that my engine operates in at a track day is 4500-7800 RPM. This range of RPM use would classify as outside of the manufacturers recommendations and the design criteria that lead to their oil recommendation.

2. Engine Oil Temps - as RPMs increase so does engine heat both from higher friction and increased number of burn cycles per minute. With increased heat comes a higher demand on both the oil and coolant systems. The OEM system on the Mustang GT have some head room, but not enough to allow for the added stresses of prolonged higher RPM use. How do I know this, because in order for my car to control cylinder head temp and oil temp with the OEM radiator at track pace, I had to remove the AC condenser, build custom duct work to the radiator, vent the hood, and change the tune in the ECU to deal with heat increases. Even with these changes I see oil temps that average 230* but can peak into the 250*f depending on ambient air temps. This again is outside of the design goals set by the manufacturer and meant that I had to take action to correct for this or wait for a failure and repair it. Besides the cooling changes I have factored the higher average temperature and peak temperature of the oil into my oil choice.

3. Oil cooler design - the OEM oil cooler is an oil to water cooler and relies on the engine coolant system to regulate oil temps, as the coolant temps increase it looses its effectiveness at regulating oil temps. The two fluids are married together and have a direct effect on each other. This can be good and bad. On the street the design offers many positive attributes one of them is to bring oil temps up to normal operating temperature quickly and there by limit wear due to cold oil conditions. At the track having the two system combined means both systems are effected by each other and are harder to isolate a cooling problem that may be associated to one system and not the other. Ideally you would have a separate oil cooling system to regulate oil temps and a separate engine coolant system to regulate coolant temps. You could then adjust the design of each system to meet the needs of each system. Since I have not separated the two system yet I need to account for the effects of one system on the other. If I decide to move to a form of track use that would require more than 20-30min sessions I would likely need to separate the two systems in order to design systems that would meet the needs of the two systems. Again this is outside of the manufacturers design goals for the car so changes were made to address the issues.

4. I have had access to some of the Ford Performance race engineers, Ford and private race teams, Ford drivers, and have heeded their advice on many of the needed upgrades to prolong the life of my cars engine, transmission and the rest of the drive-train. The folks I have spoke with do not use a 20w oil, they do not run OEM recommended trans oil weights or OEM recommended diff oil weights.

So you can see I have made many changes to my cars performance requirements and as a result I have to factor that into the recommendation made by Ford and its engineers. I have changed the maintenance schedule and fluid types to better match my use of my vehicle. I started this post by saying I am not going to tell you what oil to use in your car but I run 5w50 full synthetic in mine based on the factors listed above. If I separate the oil and coolant system I will look at the oil needs again and factor that into my choice.

Dave

Must_Tang said:

Thanks Spiller for the sane reply. I'd use what the manual suggests, but of course, it's up to you. I could be wrong, but I don't believe there are any chemical or mechanical engineers on this blog. I'm not one.

So, I do rely on the manufacturer engineer's recommendations on things like oil weight and grade, and not other folks that are making suggestions based on their own beliefs and other misinformation out there on the interwebs.

Here's my opinion: As manufacturers torture test their engines, for durability, I don't believe they are running a heavier weight oil on the torture tests, then recommend a lighter oil just to meet CAFE. If an engine is designed to run on the recommended fluid, the bearing clearances, roller rockers, cams, and everything else in there is part of that design. Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Porsche, and others know that high performance models will be abused and tracked. They're not going recommend an oil that won't work.

As for the "you have to run heavier oil on the track because it gets hot crowd", that's your opinion and you are entitled to it, but there's no basis for the recommendation other than their own pretzel logic.

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You misspelled "for the guys who know what they are doing crowd".

I get it. You need to be right. And you are...partially. For your skill level, 5w20 is just fine.

The spread from the Novice to the Advanced group is substantial. Higher lateral loads, higher RPM, more heat. How does your 5w20 act at points WELL beyond the intended use and manufacturers intended use?

Ford recommends 5w20 for use within the intended range.


If we only knew what Ford recommends for high RPM track use....(pssst, we do, its 5w50).

Thanks ddozier for the write-up.

To the other posters, I don't "need" to be correct and apologize if you took my posts that way, but you two have crappy posting manners. Everything from you two is "YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND, blah, blah", so yeah, both of you are hard-ons. Don't expect a civil reply from me if you're like that. I'll call you an A$$hole and eventually ignore you.

That stated, I'm a data driven person. Prove to me that one solution is better than the other, and show results as to how you arrived at your recommendations.

"All the guys at the track run 50w" is not proof.

I get that oils get thinner as temps rise. But here's a few things to think about:


-Liquid cannot be compressed-viscosity does not affect this-
-Liquid cannot be compressed-viscosity does not affect this-
-Liquid cannot be compressed-viscosity does not affect this-
-Can a liquid be compressed? No.

-Oil flow into the bearing journals is what lubricates the rod big end, cam, and crank; oil pressure provides that flow. Thicker oil slows the flow down.

-Oil Flow into the journals is what cools the journals. Thicker oil will flow slower.

- The more oil that flows, the lower the temp, the shorter time it stays in a high shear/high load condition

-It is the additive package that provides the oil's wear rating, not the viscosity.

-Thinner oil puts less of a load on an oil pump gear.



All of this is predicated on what the engine is designed to run with for oil.


My engine has not spun a rod or main crank bearing. I've run it hot, plenty hot on HPDE days where the oil temp is about 1/8" from the yellow.

I'm running between 4k and 7K RPMs under heavy engine load for duration of the track session, which is 20-30 mins. Redline every shift using the paddles on my automatic.

I've never run the oil temp into the yellow, even in 85-90* ambient temps on a very hilly road course where engine loading is quite high. I wonder if the ability to keep it running below the yellow temp line is due to the 5w20? Maybe, maybe not. I've no way to prove it, so I cannot make a claim.

And again, if my earlier posts seemed flippant, you can thank the 5.Br0's, EFI and FIGDOMINATOR. I won't put up with spoiled brats

Must_Tang said:

Thanks ddozier for the write-up.

To the other posters, I don't "need" to be correct and apologize if you took my posts that way, but you two have crappy posting manners. Everything from you two is "YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND, blah, blah", so yeah, both of you are hard-ons. Don't expect a civil reply from me if you're like that. I'll call you an A$$hole and eventually ignore you.

That stated, I'm a data driven person. Prove to me that one solution is better than the other, and show results as to how you arrived at your recommendations.

"All the guys at the track run 50w" is not proof.

I get that oils get thinner as temps rise. But here's a few things to think about:


-Liquid cannot be compressed-viscosity does not affect this-
-Liquid cannot be compressed-viscosity does not affect this-
-Liquid cannot be compressed-viscosity does not affect this-
-Can a liquid be compressed? No.

-Oil flow into the bearing journals is what lubricates the rod big end, cam, and crank; oil pressure provides that flow. Thicker oil slows the flow down.

-Oil Flow into the journals is what cools the journals. Thicker oil will flow slower.

- The more oil that flows, the lower the temp, the shorter time it stays in a high shear/high load condition

-It is the additive package that provides the oil's wear rating, not the viscosity.

-Thinner oil puts less of a load on an oil pump gear.



All of this is predicated on what the engine is designed to run with for oil.


My engine has not spun a rod or main crank bearing. I've run it hot, plenty hot on HPDE days where the oil temp is about 1/8" from the yellow.

I'm running between 4k and 7K RPMs under heavy engine load for duration of the track session, which is 20-30 mins. Redline every shift using the paddles on my automatic.

I've never run the oil temp into the yellow, even in 85-90* ambient temps on a very hilly road course where engine loading is quite high. I wonder if the ability to keep it running below the yellow temp line is due to the 5w20? Maybe, maybe not. I've no way to prove it, so I cannot make a claim.

And again, if my earlier posts seemed flippant, you can thank the 5.Br0's, EFI and FIGDOMINATOR. I won't put up with spoiled brats

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You might have gotten a decent reply had you not acted like a 12 year old and spewed a bunch of nonsense:lol:

And who is talking about fluid compression besides you?:lol:

Is oil viscosity the single most important parameter? Yes.

You want a capable viscosity at the bearing during high load/high sheer conditions (properly flogged track car).

A 20wt at 230F is not a 20wt and it's viscosity at the bearing is less than ideal.

It is a fact that a more viscous fluid is capable of supporting more load than that of a less viscous fluid.

A 40 or 50 wt oil at the same 230F is capable of providing the proper viscosity at the bearing, without compromising flow.

If you want to see the math/graphs/journal articles: google is your friend.

It's okay if your car does not require alterations to it's lubrication/cooling, but don't taint the water with information that is contradictory to reality.



As far as oil temps: my car with 20wt would get hot and stay hot (in the yellow). With 0w40 in 90* temps it nears the yellow on the last couple of laps but immediately cools into the green by just breathing the throttle. It's back in the middle range by the end of a cool down lap, and this is with the factory oil cooler. I may move down to a 30wt for early summer events once a proper external cooler is added.

You're contradicting yourself. You state that no one is talking about fluid compression, yet your saying that viscosity is the most important thing. In spirit, you are stating that your expectation is that higher viscosity will provide a more impenetrable barrier. That is not true. A higher viscosity will help to fill a larger journal gap. Our cars run a tight bearing clearance.

And the most important thing is that additive package. That's the secret sauce my friend. Will you just do some research please.

Higher viscosity in a smaller space will indeed shear more...and generate more heat. Have you seen the innards of an engine before?

I should also note that I don't usually do more than 10 minute sessions in the track days I participate in. Would a 30w be suitable in these circumstances?

Take what I say with a grain of salt.

I think what [MENTION=20846]ddozier[/MENTION] said is very true.

But I will agree to a certain extent to what Must Tang is saying. Higher viscosity does not necessarily mean superior protection at higher temps. In theory it does but not necessarily. The quality of oil must be taken into consideration as well.

Keep in mind that all this is theory unless you can back it up with lab results.

I do want to add that bearing clearance is indeed important to consider. Yes oil thins out as temps go up. Assuming you drive your car as a dual purpose car, it might be best to use heavier weight oil like a 5W50 at track and 5W20 on streets.

If you don't have time to switch oils, perhaps a 5W30 is a happy medium.

I've run BG 5W30 provided by Tim at Optimum and that has yielded awesome engine protection based on my Blackstone results. I change my oil every 4 track days and the engine has shown zero wear. So it's doing its job.

So if you don't mind constantly changing oil, then use the 5W50 on track and 5W20 on street. If you want to set it and forget, run a good quality 5w30 and call it a day. More frequent oil changes is what is going to give you better wear protection.

I would just simply recommend that you might want to confirm that your theory is true by monitoring it with Blackstone lab tests.

That's all.

Must_Tang said:

You're contradicting yourself. You state that no one is talking about fluid compression, yet your saying that viscosity is the most important thing. In spirit, you are stating that your expectation is that higher viscosity will provide a more impenetrable barrier. That is not true. A higher viscosity will help to fill a larger journal gap. Our cars run a tight bearing clearance.

And the most important thing is that additive package. That's the secret sauce my friend. Will you just do some research please.

Higher viscosity in a smaller space will indeed shear more...and generate more heat. Have you seen the innards of an engine before?

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It's not my expectation, it's fact. I'm also not speaking about the compressibility of a fluid, but rather the ability of a less viscous fluid to maintain its properties outside of its intended range.

In this case we are talking about a 5w20 oil. Generally 10 mm2/s of oil viscosity is preferred at the bearing in a high load/ high sheer environment. That is on the high side, but it serves just fine to illustrate my point.

At 212F a 20w oil provides, at a maximum, <9.3mm2/s of viscosity, similar to a 10wt at 180*.

At racing temps, ~230, a 40wt approaches the viscosity rating closer to what is generally accepted, 10mm2/s.

The chart is rather rudimentary, but is based off SAE data.

The additive package in the base oil is important for lubrication, but that additive package can't do its job if the oil carrying it is too thin to provide an effective film. That's where viscosity comes into play.

It's not the compression of fluid, rather the ability of the fluid to maintain an adequate film to deliver the lubricant package.

Also, a hot 20wt is nice and thin and will undoubtedly wind up where you don't want it under high load/temp/RPM, like the intake.

And yes, I've built plenty of engines, the majority of which were modern Ford (modular) motors.

Picking oil weight for the track isn't about what it is when it goes in, it's about what it is at full tilt.

spiller said:

I should also note that I don't usually do more than 10 minute sessions in the track days I participate in. Would a 30w be suitable in these circumstances?

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Key is watch the temps of your oil. If it gets hot, back off to keep it in a good range.

If you're a novice, start with 5w20 and see where you end up.

God I love oil threads.... I'm so sick of the i better run 5w20 thing. And the blog by ratfuck.

Must_Tang said:

I get that oils get thinner as temps rise. But here's a few things to think about:


-Liquid cannot be compressed-viscosity does not affect this-
-Liquid cannot be compressed-viscosity does not affect this-
-Liquid cannot be compressed-viscosity does not affect this-
-Can a liquid be compressed? No.

-Oil flow into the bearing journals is what lubricates the rod big end, cam, and crank; oil pressure provides that flow. Thicker oil slows the flow down.

-Oil Flow into the journals is what cools the journals. Thicker oil will flow slower.

- The more oil that flows, the lower the temp, the shorter time it stays in a high shear/high load condition

-It is the additive package that provides the oil's wear rating, not the viscosity.

-Thinner oil puts less of a load on an oil pump gear.



All of this is predicated on what the engine is designed to run with for oil.

Click to expand...

You are forgetting that the oil is used for more than lubrication and cooling. It is also used to control valve timing via VVT on these cars, each camshaft is indexed or phased around its centerline by oil pressure. Oil pressure is metered electronically via solenoids and phasers to control cam indexing as required. Oil pressure is the main driving factor in controlling the cams in these cars, there is a very large amount of oil used to move the cams and the higher the oil pressure the faster the cams are actuated.

Early on some of the race teams were having cam codes when running the cars for a long duration. The short term cure was to run a higher weight oil so it would not thin out at the higher heat ranges and reduce oil pressure. The real fix was to properly remove the heat from the oil system and increase the oil capacity of the system to increase run time prior to reaching peak oil temps. Even though they solved the oil temp problem by adding additional cooling to the oil system most still run a higher weight oil than what is recommended by Ford for daily use.

Dave

higdominator said:

Key is watch the temps of your oil. If it gets hot, back off to keep it in a good range.

If you're a novice, start with 5w20 and see where you end up.

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That's what I was thinking as I watch these threads go round and round. If at the track you run at, at the intensity you drive at, and the oil temp gauge creeps up to yellow would it be a reasonable plan to move up a viscosity level and try again?

5w40 Liqui Moly, kicking my cars butt in passing or keeping up with most everyone with same or even more horsepower... oil temps never a cause for concern - they go up but typically we're at between 1/2 and 3/4 of the in-dash gauges green range. Coolant temp... well... I may need a bigger radiator in GA heat or to divert oil cooling from it with a separate oil cooler. Differential also going to need some kind of cooling system because now that I'm getting more comfortable with the car and have higher RPMs (7600), the differential isn't making it full sessions sometimes.

5w20 Penn Ultra Platinum, doing my best on my very first track day at AMP as a novice... oil temp got really damn close to yellow. Was about a 75* day and my lap times were about 10-12 seconds more than what I can achieve now. That's the best consumer oil Penn offers and it's a GREAT oil. I will probably test it again when I get a dedicated oil cool setup installed.

So... anywho. YMMV