Youtube post regarding shorties vs. longtubes

[4V Mayhem]

First off, I'll just say that I'm running a built Aluminator with a ProCharger system. I have the P1SC for street use, the D1SC-1 for mainly track use and the F-1R for high speed runs. I'm not going to debate why someone might not want to use a long tube header on a car with an 8,000RPM redline that operates between 12 and 25psi (depending on tune pulley, and head unit installed) at mainly between 4,000-7,000rpm. I'm not naturally aspirated and it isn't a drag car. It's a purpose built high RPM, flat torque curve circuit car.

This prototype car cost us well into the 6 figures to design, build, and track/road test the engine and 4 different power adder configurations we built into the car's deliverable options list. It's since been used as the basis for 8 production copies. This car was delivered from Ford in October of 2014 and wasn't retired from prototype status until recently (Sep 2016). It's now my full time daily driver and I likely won't be track driving it anymore.

That being said, header cost wasn't exactly an issue.

As a side note, I'm not much of a forum poster, so please don't be offended if I don't post regularly. I don't typically make a habit of debating configuration choices on the internet. Just know that everything has an intended use... both shorties and long tubes have their pluses and minuses. For my application, the header selection is a bit of a moot point due to clearance issues and the negligible power differences between the two above 5,000 RPM. There's a slew of other reasons why we went the way we did on it, but those are going to make sense for this build's specific purpose and may not necessarily be true for someone else's build.

Video below is of the completion of stage 1. Link in video to the final version in case you're curious.

I couldn't tell if you were agreeing with me or disagreeing. And I also couldn't tell if you're implying that you run STs or LTs. But one thing I learned is that you can only convince someone of something they already believe. Mean, if they believe it, you can convince them. If they don't believe it, then you'll never convince them. With that said, its your car and your money and you have the right to buy whatever you want. If your car is purpose built and the headers came into play for optimal performance then I'm sure you took everything into consideration. But not everyone here is building a car that costs over $100,000 just to race. If you have a GT and decide that STs are the way to go for street use, then far be it from me to ridicule you for your choice. If you think that you're getting the same level of performance as those with LTs, then I won't be able to convince you otherwise. So get what you want and enjoy is all I can say. But, don't get offended when I say that LTs are superior because it has been shown time and time again.

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[bigdave03svt]

I'm pretty sure other things on the car will drag before the headers will. Mine don't sit low...

I agree. If my headers were to drag then there would be some other damage that I might have bigger problem with! mine tuck nice and are basically flush with the chassis rails.

IMG_0666 by D.C. 83, on Flickr

 

[GGordon]

I couldn't tell if you were agreeing with me or disagreeing. And I also couldn't tell if you're implying that you run STs or LTs. But one thing I learned is that you can only convince someone of something they already believe. Mean, if they believe it, you can convince them. If they don't believe it, then you'll never convince them. With that said, its your car and your money and you have the right to buy whatever you want. If your car is purpose built and the headers came into play for optimal performance then I'm sure you took everything into consideration. But not everyone here is building a car that costs over $100,000 just to race. If you have a GT and decide that STs are the way to go for street use, then far be it from me to ridicule you for your choice. If you think that you're getting the same level of performance as those with LTs, then I won't be able to convince you otherwise. So get what you want and enjoy is all I can say. But, don't get offended when I say that LTs are superior because it has been shown time and time again.

Superior for NA applications, sure. But the modern Coyote is not a slow revving pushrod Chevy engine. If you look at the graphs in the videos some of the folks have linked here, they also show how STs overtake LTs even on those pushrod engines above 5,000rpm. When you are running a redline above 8,000 RPM and on the track you don't even go beneath 4,000, you're just not in the range where an LT does anything besides add extra weight.

Drag and street use is markedly different. In those cases, yep, you do get into the lower powerband and LTs can be beneficial... to some very small degree on NA applications. Forced inducted engines are quite a bit different... especially on the 2015+ Coyote. It's a very high revving engine with a high RPM peak... so it pays to build them for the upper range of the power band and play off the engine's strengths.

It is my personal philosophy that says building to the engine's shortcomings is a great way to waste money with little to show for it. The Coyote is a low torque engine at low RPM. No amount of LT headers and intake manifolds are going to reverse that characteristic. So, I instead chose to max the potential at the high side where the engine was already designed to be at its best. Hence the STs and a ProCharger that builds RPM in a linear fashion relative to the engine RPM.

Like I said, this is not an argument over which is better. They both have pluses and minuses. I have a whole other set of reasons why I choose not to use LTs on an S550, NA though. That has to do with $ per unit of HP gain. I can think of a dozen ways off the top of my head to get more performance out of a bolt on for far less money than what you get out of a LT. For almost $2,000 (installed), you could for example put on a 250hp nitrous kit. Or, you could gain 25hp with a header I am admittedly a proud member of the forced induction/spray train though.

NA builders rely on nickle and diming.... what I call squeezing blood out of an onion. They scavenge every last single horsepower out of everything.
I'm admittedly more hamfisted. Rather than optimize something to the Nth degree to get 3hp out of a build, I instead slap a blower on it and net 60% gain. It's cheaper, economically, to use a power adder on the 2015+ Coyote than it is to go the NA bolt on route. You also get instant, huge gains. Downside = instant, huge up front cost.

 

[GGordon]

I agree. If my headers were to drag then there would be some other damage that I might have bigger problem with! mine tuck nice and are basically flush with the chassis rails.

IMG_0666 by D.C. 83, on Flickr

Nice setup. My problem with that there though is I have an underbody heat shield in that area between the collectors and transmission tunnel that would prevent a flush mounted system. I can't do without the heat shield or the inside of my cup holders gets to over 140 degrees F. 1st world problems. ;)

 

[toplesstripcruiser]

lol..once i read that i stopped reading, that guy is clueless

This guy actually commented on one of my vids a while back, tried to tell me I had installed a coolant line in the wrong place. Yeah, no.

Check out the comments in my vid:



He comes off as a know-it-all. I'm not so sure.

I saw one of his other videos and he said that OPG and crank sprocket are a waste of money if you're careful. When many pople say they are cheap insurance. :shrug:

I agree. If my headers were to drag then there would be some other damage that I might have bigger problem with! mine tuck nice and are basically flush with the chassis rails.

IMG_0666 by D.C. 83, on Flickr

Those are nice headers. What brand? And did you need to put the exhaust wrap?

 

[Terminator2]

Superior for NA applications, sure. But the modern Coyote is not a slow revving pushrod Chevy engine. If you look at the graphs in the videos some of the folks have linked here, they also show how STs overtake LTs even on those pushrod engines above 5,000rpm. When you are running a redline above 8,000 RPM and on the track you don't even go beneath 4,000, you're just not in the range where an LT does anything besides add extra weight.

Drag and street use is markedly different. In those cases, yep, you do get into the lower powerband and LTs can be beneficial... to some very small degree on NA applications. Forced inducted engines are quite a bit different... especially on the 2015+ Coyote. It's a very high revving engine with a high RPM peak... so it pays to build them for the upper range of the power band and play off the engine's strengths.

It is my personal philosophy that says building to the engine's shortcomings is a great way to waste money with little to show for it. The Coyote is a low torque engine at low RPM. No amount of LT headers and intake manifolds are going to reverse that characteristic. So, I instead chose to max the potential at the high side where the engine was already designed to be at its best. Hence the STs and a ProCharger that builds RPM in a linear fashion relative to the engine RPM.

Like I said, this is not an argument over which is better. They both have pluses and minuses. I have a whole other set of reasons why I choose not to use LTs on an S550, NA though. That has to do with $ per unit of HP gain. I can think of a dozen ways off the top of my head to get more performance out of a bolt on for far less money than what you get out of a LT. For almost $2,000 (installed), you could for example put on a 250hp nitrous kit. Or, you could gain 25hp with a header I am admittedly a proud member of the forced induction/spray train though.

NA builders rely on nickle and diming.... what I call squeezing blood out of an onion. They scavenge every last single horsepower out of everything.
I'm admittedly more hamfisted. Rather than optimize something to the Nth degree to get 3hp out of a build, I instead slap a blower on it and net 60% gain. It's cheaper, economically, to use a power adder on the 2015+ Coyote than it is to go the NA bolt on route. You also get instant, huge gains. Downside = instant, huge up front cost.

The biggest gains with large primary long tubes vs the stock TriY shorties (which are a decent design) are actually in the upper rpms as well as the low end and midrange. They are 100% worth it to me I'd do them again for sound alone.
[ame]
Puts a huge smile on my face every time I rev it up. You'll never get that exotic scream with short headers no matter what mufflers you run.

 

[GGordon]

I saw one of his other videos and he said that OPG and crank sprocket are a waste of money if you're careful. When many pople say they are cheap insurance. :shrug:

The guy I told that to was talking about OPG swap on a stock engine with a CAI and headers. I told him it's a waste of money because he didn't make enough torque and he doesn't operate at high RPM where harmonics aren't a factor. In addition, as I also said there, I've never seen one fail where the damage wasn't caused by driver error. If you look on YouTube, you'll find just as many people with broken billet gears as you do stock ones... again because even the solid gears won't stand up to improper abuse when you have an 800+ torque engine.

 

[GGordon]

The biggest gains with large primary long tubes vs the stock TriY shorties (which are a decent design) are actually in the upper rpms as well as the low end and midrange. They are 100% worth it to me I'd do them again for sound alone.

Puts a huge smile on my face every time I rev it up. You'll never get that exotic scream with short headers no matter what mufflers you run.

People think I have long tubes on mine, if it makes any difference

 

[4V Mayhem]

Superior for NA applications, sure. But the modern Coyote is not a slow revving pushrod Chevy engine. If you look at the graphs in the videos some of the folks have linked here, they also show how STs overtake LTs even on those pushrod engines above 5,000rpm. When you are running a redline above 8,000 RPM and on the track you don't even go beneath 4,000, you're just not in the range where an LT does anything besides add extra weight.

Drag and street use is markedly different. In those cases, yep, you do get into the lower powerband and LTs can be beneficial... to some very small degree on NA applications. Forced inducted engines are quite a bit different... especially on the 2015+ Coyote. It's a very high revving engine with a high RPM peak... so it pays to build them for the upper range of the power band and play off the engine's strengths.

It is my personal philosophy that says building to the engine's shortcomings is a great way to waste money with little to show for it. The Coyote is a low torque engine at low RPM. No amount of LT headers and intake manifolds are going to reverse that characteristic. So, I instead chose to max the potential at the high side where the engine was already designed to be at its best. Hence the STs and a ProCharger that builds RPM in a linear fashion relative to the engine RPM.

Like I said, this is not an argument over which is better. They both have pluses and minuses. I have a whole other set of reasons why I choose not to use LTs on an S550, NA though. That has to do with $ per unit of HP gain. I can think of a dozen ways off the top of my head to get more performance out of a bolt on for far less money than what you get out of a LT. For almost $2,000 (installed), you could for example put on a 250hp nitrous kit. Or, you could gain 25hp with a header I am admittedly a proud member of the forced induction/spray train though.

NA builders rely on nickle and diming.... what I call squeezing blood out of an onion. They scavenge every last single horsepower out of everything.
I'm admittedly more hamfisted. Rather than optimize something to the Nth degree to get 3hp out of a build, I instead slap a blower on it and net 60% gain. It's cheaper, economically, to use a power adder on the 2015+ Coyote than it is to go the NA bolt on route. You also get instant, huge gains. Downside = instant, huge up front cost.

Very well said. I'll admit that on my 03 GT I chose STs over LTs because the minimal improvements in performance the LTs offered was not worth the labor and hassle of getting them...to me. On my 10 Camaro SS, I chose LTs because the labor and price involved with getting STs were identical to getting LTs. Actually, STs would have been more expensive. On my 15 GT, I'll get LTs if anything. Because to me, the labor involved in putting STs on my GT is not worth it especially considering that the stock manifolds are essentially ST headers themselves. Any gains would surely come mostly from HF cats or cat deletes. On a forced induction application, ST headers would be even better over stock manifolds but that much is obvious. I have to argue that even tho people should get what is right for them (depending on goals, budget, fitment, etc), LTs will always outshine STs in NA applications and when forced induction is introduced. Again, it has been proven. Whether it is on a pushrod engine or a OHC engine. In some instances, when an engine is designed a certain way, then it is possible that STs will be optimal. But in normal DD or street/strip applications, LTs are the way to go.

 

[PC 2015]

No no no.

Hahaha

 

[z06psi]

Video be private now. :cheers:

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