So the new gen7 whipple numbers are out........

[Angrey]

I don't want to fall into the trap of poo-poo'ing the new stuff because I just so happen to have the [now] old stuff. I really don't like when people automatically bash new stuff because usually in the end, it turns out to be better.

But....physics and thermo cannot be defeated, as hard as we try.

I'm sure the Gen6 blower is better than Gen5, just as I'm sure the Gen4(?) Coyote is better than the Gen3.

But if we do some basic math here...these blowers are in the 80% efficiency range. As you approach 100%, the gains are harder and harder to realize. If you do the math on the power it takes to compress 1700 cfm of air to 10 or 12 psi, you get numbers around 80 hp at 100% efficiency. Therefore, at 80% efficiency this rises to about 100 hp. It's not hard to see that there's not much blood left in this turnip. If Whipple somehow found 10% efficiency, then that would be about a 10 hp gain. There could be more if a lower charge temp afforded more spark timing, but the Gen5 whipple intercooler worked so well it wouldn't make much difference by the time it got to the cylinders.

So the Gen4 Coyote, as far as I know, has an improved TB setup, intake manifold, exhaust cams, and maybe the exhaust manifolds are a tad better. Of course, the TB and manifold makes no difference when adding a PD blower, so that leaves the exhaust cams and manifolds.

Oh, and the S650 is heavier.

So are we to believe that a blower efficiency improvement (<10 hp), slightly larger exhaust cams, and slightly improved exhaust manifolds makes up for the added weight and still pulls 5-10 more mph, making 100 or 150 more rwhp? That's a hard one for me to swallow.

To take it a step further, I think the torque numbers give it away. It's been published for many decades that BMEP can be used as a "yardstick" to determine if engine output claims are BS. Well, for us that boils down to peak torque output. These engines are knock-limited on pump gas so the peak torque is capped at whatever cylinder pressure and temperature it can sustain without knock. That limit usually happens around 600 ftlb at the wheels. I've found it myself on the dyno several times on several different pulley sizes as well. Now suddenly we're seeing 630-660 with pullies that used to make 560-580. That's more like E85 numbers. At the same airflow/rpm (boost), displacement, and the timing, the torque would be the same. The only piece of this equation we don't know is the timing. Based on the torque numbers, I highly doubt it's hitting the 17-17.5 deg timing cap that Whipple has run in the past.

Personally, I have no doubt that the octane they're running is much higher than 93. The mystery to me is how they're "safely" getting the extra timing into the motor on an emissions tune that everyone will supposedly be running. There are 2 ways I can think of, being 1) allow a lot of timing like 21+ deg and let the knock sensors keep it "safe" on pump gas, or 2) calibrate and use octane adjust which hasn't really been done since Gen2 Coyote. I suppose it's possible that the knock algorithm is improved on the Gen4 Coyote so they're comfortable running it into knock every time they go WOT, but who knows at this point....

Very well laid out. I suspect that the blower efficiency is a small part. The rest is tune and fuel. Maybe Whipple found a way to calibrate to take advantage of better fuel (i.e. a way to advance the timing on great fuel and keep it more conservative on true pump 93).

Would be interesting to see a true apples/apples side by side, true pump 93 (no additive) with both a gen5 S550 on the whipple cal, dyno'd on the same unit on the same day against an S650 with a gen6. Then look at the logs. That'll tell us where the true story lies.

The other part that adds intrigue to this is seeing the "initial" numbers that came out. If it's truly a 50 state legal setup on pump gas, why such drastic swings in what we saw from the initial numbers.

It doesn't take a cynic to ponder the question.........what if what we're we're observing on the first hero marketing cars is NOT what you're going to get on your production, run of the mill model. Or said out loud, what if they're using a calibration that no one but special vendors and partners are going to get in order to juice/prop up sales? They wouldn't do that would they?

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[engineermike]

….or the “dyno mode” someone posted about a few pages back.

 

[ZXMustang]

….or the “dyno mode” someone posted about a few pages back.

Current S550 oem tunes have that Dyno mode. I seen it in my tune.

 

[ZXMustang]

Very well laid out. I suspect that the blower efficiency is a small part. The rest is tune and fuel. Maybe Whipple found a way to calibrate to take advantage of better fuel (i.e. a way to advance the timing on great fuel and keep it more conservative on true pump 93).

Would be interesting to see a true apples/apples side by side, true pump 93 (no additive) with both a gen5 S550 on the whipple cal, dyno'd on the same unit on the same day against an S650 with a gen6. Then look at the logs. That'll tell us where the true story lies.

The other part that adds intrigue to this is seeing the "initial" numbers that came out. If it's truly a 50 state legal setup on pump gas, why such drastic swings in what we saw from the initial numbers.

It doesn't take a cynic to ponder the question.........what if what we're we're observing on the first hero marketing cars is NOT what you're going to get on your production, run of the mill model. Or said out loud, what if they're using a calibration that no one but special vendors and partners are going to get in order to juice/prop up sales? They wouldn't do that would they?

Also remember they are now putting out the 3.750 pulley with the stage 2 kit. The S550 stage 2 kit was only the 3.875 pulley. And the lethal car had that smaller pulley on it as well.

 

[Angrey]

Also remember they are now putting out the 3.750 pulley with the stage 2 kit. The S550 stage 2 kit was only the 3.875 pulley. And the lethal car had that smaller pulley on it as well.

Yeah, no doubt in my mind that the Gen6 isn't better. If I could have the option of a magic wand replacement for my Gen5 I'd take it. Whipple has improved their product at every step. But I highly doubt it's responsible for the pump gas jump we're seeing.

 

[ZXMustang]

Yeah, no doubt in my mind that the Gen6 isn't better. If I could have the option of a magic wand replacement for my Gen5 I'd take it. Whipple has improved their product at every step. But I highly doubt it's responsible for the pump gas jump we're seeing.

Its a hotter tune from whipple, octane booster that they 100% used and the extra boost from the 3.750 pulley. I've seen the S550 whipple tunes and they are running power enrichment at .79 lambda. I bet they've leaned it out a tad and added a few hero degrees of timing. With my car I run it at .78 lambda and ramp the timing in really fast, and on e30 blend it adds almost 3 degrees of timing on top of whats in the boarderline table. Im seeing mid 18*, almost 19*. When I run straight 93, Im lucky to get a clean run at 16* without seeing knock. The octane makes a huge difference and the coyote spark logic loves it.

 

[Jasonb543]

That 9.9999 was a bit of a hero pass, the VMP car was down at NMRA this weekend and ran multiple 10.3s fwiw.

 

[ZXMustang]

That 9.9999 was a bit of a hero pass, the VMP car was down at NMRA this weekend and ran multiple 10.3s fwiw.

I ran 10.20@137 with my stage 1 S550 with the 3.875 pulley. Not impressed.

 

[CarmeloS]

From what I can gather, the test mule DH on new Whipple kit put out 713 rwhp.

All I can say is DAYUM. Talk about the end of an era. I can't imagine dropping $60k and another $10k on top to end up with 713 rwhp.

If you know any hackers or dark web operatives tell them to get going on cracking the Ford vehicle management system.

Maybe we'll see more and cheaper standalone options come from this (that don't require a separate display). Does anyone even offer a 16 port stand alone for DI/PI late model motors at this point?

I'm sorry, I know all the major businesses and usual suspects in our industry are trying to salvage what a wonderful world we lived in, but honestly, if 713 is the best it's going to get, I'd have probably just left my isht stock.

And this this, the prices of '11-23s are jumping up

 

[engineermike]

Current S550 oem tunes have that Dyno mode. I seen it in my tune.

Not that one. Some call it “race mode”.

 

[engineermike]

Also remember they are now putting out the 3.750 pulley with the stage 2 kit. The S550 stage 2 kit was only the 3.875 pulley. And the lethal car had that smaller pulley on it as well.

One pulley size was worth about 15 hp on my car once you back out the timing to offset it for knock.

 

[ZXMustang]

One pulley size was worth about 15 hp on my car once you back out the timing to offset it for knock.

I’m sure they were using octane booster so I’d assume timing was not backed out.

 

[engineermike]

I’m sure they were using octane booster so I’d assume timing was not backed out.

Ok, so the pulley size would be worth about 20 hp in that case.

 

[ZXMustang]

Ok, so the pulley size would be worth about 20 hp in that case.

k

 

[tosha]

S550's are not going away anywhere any time soon, there is enough of them built to keep the tuning business running, so I don't thing there will be a flood of companies shutting down. As far as s650, I don't know why whould somebody even bother trying to build a drag strip car out of it even if it had an open pcm? Extra weight with no real performance benefit over previous gen. This whipple package is more than enough for it to be a fun street car, and you have a better platform for everything else. I personally think that epa regulations will kill the industry long before we run out of gen3 coyotes. And by that time any grocery getter will be capable of doing a sub 9s pass.

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