Science is now cancelled? [USERS NOW BANNED FOR POLITICS]

[Burkey]

Can someone give me an idea of when exactly the US (or the states themselves) plans to ban the sale of new ICE vehicles? So far I’ve seen California proposing something like 2035 and some other states maybe nearer to 2030. Is there any proposal earlier than that?

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[K4fxd]

I don't know why it's "sad". Weird.

Because my tax dollars are subsidizing their cars. Also most think they are saving the planet.

 

[K4fxd]

Well, you'd absolutely want to add a 50a circuit (good lord, someone here said that was $1K-5K, a 12-18" run near a garage breaker box is about $300), and a decent Level 2 charger, there's options under $400.

All said and good but most rural older homes only have a 100 amp lead in, addi g a 50 amp circuit would be against code and a possible fire hazzard.

 

[Burkey]

Because my tax dollars are subsidizing their cars. Also most think they are saving the planet.

Why is it all or nothing? Do you think it’s possible that they realise the solution isn’t perfect, but rather that it’s the best we have at the moment?

 

[sk47]

All said and good but most rural older homes only have a 100 amp lead in, addi g a 50 amp circuit would be against code and a possible fire hazzard.

Hello; I am lucky in having a 200 amp service. The house at one time had all electric baseboard heat. You know resistance heat. There was a push to do this a few decades ago. At the time boasting how clean and cheap it would be. Clean it was but it did not turn out to be cheap. At some point a central air/heat pump was installed.
I have disconnected nearly all the electric baseboard heaters and removed a few. So I have enough to do a 50 amp charger.

That said lots of folks will not have such a big service and the cost of adding a new box will be on top of the other costs of an EV. In a country where lots of folks live paycheck to paycheck and cannot come up with $500 for an emergency this may be a problem.

 

[sk47]

Can someone give me an idea of when exactly the US (or the states themselves) plans to ban the sale of new ICE vehicles? So far I’ve seen California proposing something like 2035 and some other states maybe nearer to 2030. Is there any proposal earlier than that?

Hello; Let me educate a bit. The lead time for a new vehicle can be eight years or even more. So if states are banning the sale of new ICE by 2030 we will be seeing development of new ICE end in a couple of years.
Sure they can carry on with models that already exist for a while. Same for development of new ICE engines. That may already be ended as far as I know.

 

[sk47]

Why is it all or nothing? Do you think it’s possible that they realise the solution isn’t perfect, but rather that it’s the best we have at the moment?

Hello; The best we have at the moment is the very mature ICE vehicles. They also are not perfect, but are very much better than before.
Here is the thing I and a few others have been trying to get across for these many pages. There are serious environmental issues with the EV's currently. All we have is a promise that some day the problems with EV's may be solved. Somehow that promise is supposed to be good enough on it's own while the very good ways to make an ICE clean already exist, but are dismissed.

I refer back to my post about how the state of Florida blew up it's last coal fired power plant and I chided you for not giving any credit at all for that accomplishment. ICE engines can be and are being run on Hydrogen or on natural gas right now. That makes them even cleaner that one run on gasoline. It would be so much easier to switch an ICE to one or both of these fuels, but you champion an all in push for EV's.

 

[K4fxd]

Why is it all or nothing? Do you think it’s possible that they realise the solution isn’t perfect, but rather that it’s the best we have at the moment?

Why should I pay taxes to lower your car costs? Then you drive on roads that my tax dollars pay for. You pay no road tax.

If EV's are so great why do we tax payers need to help pay for them?

 

[sk47]

Hello; Oh. Oh. I know the answer to that question. It is the grand dream behind the idea. That EV's are so costly to make currently and that makes them uncompetitive is just a minor stumbling block compared to the grand idea. ( note- even with subsidies they still are more expensive than an equivalent ICE. )
That the environmental impact of finding stuff such as lithium is substantial is also a minor blip when compared to the grand idea.
That the batteries are not yet able to be recycled at much of a rate is also a minor stumbling block compared to the grand idea.
That the EV's are much heavier, have a short range, are slow to recharge compared to an ICE is a minor inconvenience within the scope of the grand idea.
That the EV can electrocute you to death is an acceptable risk when the grand idea is flashed before our eyes. ( Yes I know an ICE can cause fatal incidences, but it will not electrocute me. )

I could go on but the point is made. The grand dream makes it OK to artificially raise the cost of ICE fuel. To put oil companies out of business. To ban drilling in some places and so on.

By the way some states are beginning to look at ways to make an EV owner pay up in terms of road taxes. I posted a link on this recently.

Do I need to say what the grand dream may be? Thing is if I could believe the hype is true I would be ready to get on board. I am all for saving the planet. I do however want the way to save the planet make sense. Long before warming can become a dire threat several other things will become the dire events. Yet I can not get traction about these more pressing issues in a discussion such as this one.

Let me bring one such thing up. I knew we were in trouble many years ago when bottled water became an ordinary everyday thing. I mounted a decent filter under my kitchen sink and refill bottles I also wash. I do not buy commercial bottled water unless I get caught out. I always have at least a half gallon of water in my vehicle when I travel. My bottles are washed and reused. ( I do not use the bottled water bottles, I bought bottles that are heavy duty and have reused some of them for a couple of decades.)

 

[Burkey]

There are serious environmental issues with the EV's currently.

What are those environmental issues that an EV
poses that an ICE doesn’t? You’ve lost me on this one.

Somehow that promise is supposed to be good enough on it's own while the very good ways to make an ICE clean already exist, but are dismissed.

Erm….if the technology already exists, why isn’t it in place already?

I refer back to my post about how the state of Florida blew up it's last coal fired power plant and I chided you for not giving any credit at all for that accomplishment.

Indeed you did and I still don’t know why…
Its as if I’m supposed to make a list of countries/states that are doing an awesome job and spruik about all of them. My apologies for not doing so.
Ate you going to apologise for failing to mention all the nations that are kicking all of our collective arses in this area or is just me who needs to do it?

ICE engines can be and are being run on Hydrogen or on natural gas right now. That makes them even cleaner that one run on gasoline. It would be so much easier to switch an ICE to one or both of these fuels, but you champion an all in push for EV's.

If manufacturers can make hydrogen work, I’m all for it. Please don’t make the mistake of thinking I’m all about EV’s to the exclusion of all others.

Using natural gas would indeed reduce tailpipe emissions of CO2 by roughly half, but that still misses major parts of the equation.
1. IC engines are notoriously shitful at converting energy into power. You know that heat and noise? Yeah, that’s energy being converted into things other than propulsion.
2. Halving the amount of CO2 isn’t the goal.
3. Have a read for yourself….

“WHAT IS THE DANGER OF METHANE IN NATURAL GAS PRODUCTION?
Climate scientists are concerned about another greenhouse gas that leaks into the atmosphere during natural gas production: methane. Methane has a warming effect up to 80 or 90 times more powerful than C02 over a 20-year timescale. [nL2N2EL21I]

In April, a study published in the journal Science Advances found that the amount of methane being released in the natural gas and oil-rich Permian basin between New Mexico and Texas was double federal estimates. Two further studies, published in July, highlighted the role of the U.S. oil and gas industry in driving a rise in global methane emissions to the highest levels on record.


The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency last week rolled back regulations to curb methane emissions in the oil and gas industry - a move supported by API.[nL1N2FF260]

Many companies say they have been doing more to find and fix methane leaks. API’s website points to industry initiatives and innovations to “capture as much methane as possible.”

 

[Burkey]

Hmm. Your reply didn’t answer the question, but instead raised new questions…

I wonder If the US government recognises the cost to the taxpayer of going green. I assume they’re offering incentives because they (the government, that’s YOU, the people) are going to have to foot the bill for it one way or another. Helping you to gain access to these green measures might be ONE way of making it happen sooner.
The fact that you decide not to take them up on the offer isn’t exactly the governments fault.

Do you apply the same standard when businesses get tax breaks for investing in new equipment? I mean, effectively, they’re reducing THEIR tax bill and someone (you) has to pick up the slack right?
The difference being, that if YOU don’t own a business, some of those tax breaks aren’t even available to you…

Upset at the government for offering those tax advantages to business?
It could just as easily be argued that those businesses should be able to survive without government help right?

Are you pissed at the various states for tipping $17 billion dollars into car manufacturing subsidies since 1976? What value does that offer people who don’t even own a car? We both know the answer.

 

[sk47]

Hello; I see that Burkey has forgotten that several of the questions he asked in his two most recent posts have been answered already. In some cases answered in a lot of detail. No need to rewrite all these things again as they are already in place in past posts in this very thread.
I suggest a look back if this information has been forgotten.

 

[K4fxd]

“capture as much methane as possible.”

HA!
Obviously you have never been to swamp country like the southern US. IE FL, GA, MISS, AL, Louisiana. What are you going to do about all the methane being released by the swamps?

Yea, that smell in the air and water is methane.

Hey nice try at deflecting.

 

[K4fxd]

That said lots of folks will not have such a big service and the cost of adding a new box will be on top of the other costs of an EV.

It is not just the cost of the box. If you have 100 amp service the lead in wire, the wire from the pole to the house, will also need to be replaced with one capable of handling 200 amps.

 

[K4fxd]

What are those environmental issues that an EV
poses that an ICE doesn’t? You’ve lost me on this one.

One simple one is the mining of the metals needed to make the battery. These metals are scarce and will run out long before oil.

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