Recommended catch cans & other questions

[tsunami]

Clarification on Turbo oil deposits?

I had assumed that oil burning onto the hot turbine blades would be the main culprit in blade deposits. But as I read reviews from turbine (turbo) manufacturers, it seemed that they implied deposits were coming from cooler blade temperatures. They all did imply that oil vapors should not be allowed to enter the turbo regardless of temps. Any turbo experts on line that can explain when/why blades will get carbon deposits?

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[gr8popp]

Hi folks, I'm increasingly close to pulling the trigger on a 15 EcoBoost, but have a few other questions about modifications.

• What's the recommended catch can manufacturer?
• From extensively reading many threads in this forum it looks like the 2.3L I4 has a lot of potential with modifications related to performance. Do we know yet the limits of this engine with the stock block/internals how much PSI and HP are safe?
• What are your guy's recommended first modifications?

Right now on my list is a catch can, manual transmission fluid swap and MGW's Race-spec shifter. I'll definitely be bringing this car to Stage 1 with a tune and full exhaust, but not sure about a new intercooler (wont ever see the track) or anything else yet. Thoughts?

I think you need to buy the car first.

 

[dgc333]

You're right, I don't understand the PCV system at all. Even the reading you posted is a bit over my head. I couldn't point to a crank case on a motor so I don't quite understand this to an extreme degree. I would like to though, I'll do some more Googling.

PCV systems were first added to cars in the 60's as an emissions control device. Prior to that time the crank case (the area at the bottom of the engine where the crank shaft spins) was just vented to the atmosphere along with the oily vapors.

The PCV valve is a controlled vacuum leak into the intake manifold. Because it is drawing the fumes from the crank case you need to allow air back in. On modern engines this is a line from the engine (usually the valve cover on top of the engine) to the down stream side of the air filter so only clean air is drawn back into the engine.

When you add a turbo to the mix the intake manifold is under positive pressure any time you are in boost. Under these conditions the PCV valve is closed. Piston rings are never a perfect seal so you will get some leakage into the crank case especially under boost. The fumes from the crank case then travel through the make up air line to where it connects down stream of the air filter.

Under normal no boost driving the the fumes drawn into the intake manifold can/will leave deposits on the intake valves and with a direct injection engine there is no fuel flowing past the valves to clean them.

Under boost the fumes going the other way will coat the compressor side of the turbo, all the plumbing, throttle body as well as the intake valves.

Catch cans in these lines add volume that slows down the air speed allowing the oil to drop out of suspension and be collected in the can. The better cans also have baffles that cause the air flow to change direction further aiding the collection of oil. The 2.3 Ecoboost motor also has a very elaborate baffle chamber on the side of the block where the PCV valve attaches to keep the oil from getting into the intake manifold.

 

[Kjewer1]

The biggest concerns for performance with oil getting into the intake are generally the fact that it has an extremely low octane (doesn't take much to start knock) and it will coat the inside of the intercooler further reducing its efficiency (can be cleaned out occasionally with gasoline, other solvents, or degreaser). A completely closed loop PCV system isn't quite as critical for MAP based cars as it is for MAF based cars (unmetered air entering the system), but it's still usually a good idea for some of the reasons given in previous posts.

On all of my turbo cars I run Calan catch cans, so I'm going to see if he can make me something for this car. They use a pretty elaborate system of various filter media and coalescing filters that strip very fine oil particles from the air. I've never seen a single bit of oil get through one of these cans, except in one case of catastrophic piston failure which doesn't count.

 

[z6cyl]

I think you need to buy the car first.

Can't buy a car on a Sunday in CO. :(

 

[z6cyl]

PCV systems were first added to cars in the 60's as an emissions control device. Prior to that time the crank case (the area at the bottom of the engine where the crank shaft spins) was just vented to the atmosphere along with the oily vapors.

The PCV valve is a controlled vacuum leak into the intake manifold. Because it is drawing the fumes from the crank case you need to allow air back in. On modern engines this is a line from the engine (usually the valve cover on top of the engine) to the down stream side of the air filter so only clean air is drawn back into the engine.

When you add a turbo to the mix the intake manifold is under positive pressure any time you are in boost. Under these conditions the PCV valve is closed. Piston rings are never a perfect seal so you will get some leakage into the crank case especially under boost. The fumes from the crank case then travel through the make up air line to where it connects down stream of the air filter.

Under normal no boost driving the the fumes drawn into the intake manifold can/will leave deposits on the intake valves and with a direct injection engine there is no fuel flowing past the valves to clean them.

Under boost the fumes going the other way will coat the compressor side of the turbo, all the plumbing, throttle body as well as the intake valves.

Catch cans in these lines add volume that slows down the air speed allowing the oil to drop out of suspension and be collected in the can. The better cans also have baffles that cause the air flow to change direction further aiding the collection of oil. The 2.3 Ecoboost motor also has a very elaborate baffle chamber on the side of the block where the PCV valve attaches to keep the oil from getting into the intake manifold.

Ahh the PCV is one way! Explains that picture from the link.

So under vacuum the fumes go directly from the crank case to the intake manifold, and under boost that line is closed to keep it from back flowing (?) and instead goes through the turbo and thus, back to the intake. So I'll be going with the UPR because I want that extra protection.

 

[dragonacc]

Ahh the PCV is one way! Explains that picture from the link.

So under vacuum the fumes go directly from the crank case to the intake manifold, and under boost that line is closed to keep it from back flowing (?) and instead goes through the turbo and thus, back to the intake. So I'll be going with the UPR because I want that extra protection.

Looks like you get the idea now.

 

[Mishimoto]

Hi folks, I'm increasingly close to pulling the trigger on a 15 EcoBoost, but have a few other questions about modifications.

• What's the recommended catch can manufacturer?
• From extensively reading many threads in this forum it looks like the 2.3L I4 has a lot of potential with modifications related to performance. Do we know yet the limits of this engine with the stock block/internals how much PSI and HP are safe?
• What are your guy's recommended first modifications?

Right now on my list is a catch can, manual transmission fluid swap and MGW's Race-spec shifter. I'll definitely be bringing this car to Stage 1 with a tune and full exhaust, but not sure about a new intercooler (wont ever see the track) or anything else yet. Thoughts?

Nice to hear you are considering the Mustang EB! We've had our shop vehicle for a few months now and we really enjoy the new model, especially with the IRS.

A catch can is a wise first/initial upgrade for any engine featuring a DI system. As I am sure you've read, valve deposits are quite common, requiring regular servicing/cleaning. There are a few options in terms of catch can selection, we've developed a pretty slick system as well. We performed extensive testing to evaluate both the PCV line and the breather line to determine the amount of fluid/byproduct each produces. This allowed us to offer a kit which targets the specific CCV line that would be most effective. Our full development/testing progress is shown below.

http://engineering.mishimoto.com/?cat=207

Aside from that, an intake, exhaust, and tune will really open up the EcoBoost (especially the tune) in terms of power output. Once you have these basic modifications complete, an intercooler and intercooler pipe upgrade would be wise in terms of a supporting modification to handle the additional heat generated with the added power.

As noted by Angel, several tuning companies are reporting numbers in the mid to high 300's without concern.

Let us know if we can help out with anything! Good luck with the EB!

-John

In regards to safe numbers, there is no clearly defined line. That said, a couple of the repuatable Tuners here seem to be hitting 400/400 confortably. Keep in mind this is with quality and reputable tuner behind the Tuner Device.

Some feel more comfortable around 350, but that will be up to you, your Tuner of choice and the quality of fuel you choose to run.

An oil catch can is a great idea, but i think most here would recommend an upgraded FMIC(intercooler) if you plan to run your EB hard. That said, a Tune, Intercooler and a Cat h can would be a good top 3.

Hope this helps.

Jim

Great advice Jim!

I read through that thread, I am slightly confused as I don't understand the pcv system on these cars (or any really).

It seems like the Mishimoto doesn't help from feeding the oily gases directly to the turbo where as the UPR does? What significance does this have?

You are correct. The UPR can prevents the vapors from going into the turbo. Actually Mishimoto's testing didn't show any accumulation on their car from a can they hooked up to the turbo line, BUT, when you start running higher boost levels and add on more mods you are very likely to start getting oil going that direction on a single valve can.

It is potentially overkill for most people, but if the extra cost isn't a huge factor for you I would get the UPR can.

Correct! Our catch can system is designed to splice into the PCV line to capture any contaminants that would otherwise end up in the intake manifold and valves. We conducted testing which includes both normal road driving as well as WOT pulls and dryno runs to observe each line in the system for actual accumulation. Our results directly impacted the direction we went with our kit, which retains the factory line route and function. Kit style selection is entirely up to you guys, but we feel we have a very solid and effective system for the EB.

Thanks
-John

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