Quick Manual shifting advise!

[CrashOverride]

I don't know but do the syncro's like or dislike it?

Every time you shift, the input and output shafts have to be synchronized, hence the term synchro. This is accomplished by a set of clutches on the side of a sliding collar that engages or disengages a gear. Note that all gears are in constant mesh, so that when you are in first gear, the slider is tying the input shift to first gear. 2nd through 6th are free-wheeling. If you think of a synchro like a clutch, ask yourself would it be better to take off at 4000 RPM or 1500 RPM? Obviously the higher the speed difference, the more wear that will take place. So the theory goes that by skipping gears, you may have less synchro engagements, but the speed difference they need to overcome is worse, hence why some people (Including me) rarely skip gears.



There is absolutely nothing wrong with skipping gears, but it will wear your synchros more. Whether or not it makes a difference while you own the car is another thing. If you plan on putting 100k miles on the trans, then I would be more delicate with the synchros. If you usually dump your cars every 3 years, then have at it because they will likely last a fair amount of abuse, even if you wind the snot out of first, and then upshft into 6th.

Just out of my own curiosity, if you are in 1st or 2nd and going to skip to 3rd or 4th accordingly, and there's traffic keeping you at say 4k RPM, do you hang there till you have enough RPM to skip ahead in gears? Same question but I'll word it differently for clarities sake. You're in 2nd gear at 4k RPM and traffic is keeping you from changing your speed, do you just hang at 4k RPM till you get enough speed to shift into 4th? My brother likes to keep his cars hanging at higher RPM witch is why I ask. I've know other drivers that shift way too soon a lug their cars around too.

It's all about throttle response, your plan of attack and road conditions. If you are happy where you are, e.g. have no care about going faster, and you don't think you will need to go faster in a hurry (e.g. accelerate), then there is no harm upshifting. On the other hand, if you tend to hunt/peck through traffic and squirt through openings, then you will need your engine closer to the torque peak to have better throttle response, and much greater acceleration capability. Personally, I like to keep it around 2000-2500RPM in normal driving, or higher when I want to really move.

Strictly speaking, the less revolutions per mile results in the least frictional wear, but the more you load up the engine, the harder it is on the piston pin, rod, and less so much for the bigger journals like the crank. Is it enough to quantify in regular driving? Not really - up to a point. If you drive around all the time at the upper end of the tach, then yes you will burn your rings faster and you will be smoking like a diesel (Or the rev-happy civic drivers around here).

People that have driven a stck for a really long time will tell you that you don't need to look at the tach. Race car drivers will tell you that you don't need to look at the tach. They are both right. Racers either setup their tach so that when the needle is 12'o'clock everything is good, or they have an idiot light telling them when to shift. If you are looking at the tach, then you are either driving unsafely, or not pushing the car as hard as you could. For around town, you can simply hear when you need to shift. Your ears get used to the sound of a certain RPM you like to shift at. After a week or two of shifting using the tach, with the radio off, you will learn the sound, and not need the tach any more.

I've taught several people how to drive sticks. Those that don't use the tach pick it up much better.

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[Sivi70980]

Every time you shift, the input and output shafts have to be synchronized, hence the term synchro. This is accomplished by a set of clutches on the side of a sliding collar that engages or disengages a gear. Note that all gears are in constant mesh, so that when you are in first gear, the slider is tying the input shift to first gear. 2nd through 6th are free-wheeling. If you think of a synchro like a clutch, ask yourself would it be better to take off at 4000 RPM or 1500 RPM? Obviously the higher the speed difference, the more wear that will take place. So the theory goes that by skipping gears, you may have less synchro engagements, but the speed difference they need to overcome is worse, hence why some people (Including me) rarely skip gears.



There is absolutely nothing wrong with skipping gears, but it will wear your synchros more. Whether or not it makes a difference while you own the car is another thing. If you plan on putting 100k miles on the trans, then I would be more delicate with the synchros. If you usually dump your cars every 3 years, then have at it because they will likely last a fair amount of abuse, even if you wind the snot out of first, and then upshft into 6th.



It's all about throttle response, your plan of attack and road conditions. If you are happy where you are, e.g. have no care about going faster, and you don't think you will need to go faster in a hurry (e.g. accelerate), then there is no harm upshifting. On the other hand, if you tend to hunt/peck through traffic and squirt through openings, then you will need your engine closer to the torque peak to have better throttle response, and much greater acceleration capability. Personally, I like to keep it around 2000-2500RPM in normal driving, or higher when I want to really move.

Strictly speaking, the less revolutions per mile results in the least frictional wear, but the more you load up the engine, the harder it is on the piston pin, rod, and less so much for the bigger journals like the crank. Is it enough to quantify in regular driving? Not really - up to a point. If you drive around all the time at the upper end of the tach, then yes you will burn your rings faster and you will be smoking like a diesel (Or the rev-happy civic drivers around here).

People that have driven a stck for a really long time will tell you that you don't need to look at the tach. Race car drivers will tell you that you don't need to look at the tach. They are both right. Racers either setup their tach so that when the needle is 12'o'clock everything is good, or they have an idiot light telling them when to shift. If you are looking at the tach, then you are either driving unsafely, or not pushing the car as hard as you could. For around town, you can simply hear when you need to shift. Your ears get used to the sound of a certain RPM you like to shift at. After a week or two of shifting using the tach, with the radio off, you will learn the sound, and not need the tach any more.

I've taught several people how to drive sticks. Those that don't use the tach pick it up much better.

Wow, thank you. I been driving a manual for a long while too so generally feel it as well. I only look at the tack when doing something fun/stupid. I really enjoyed the informative reply, learned some stuff. And because internet, I am genuinely thankful, no sarcasm or hurt butts here lol.

 

[thunderstrike]

From 1st to 2nd gear shift, I only drop clutch 2.5 inches where it is disengaged. I shift down to second quickly and may do a slight rev match manually if RPM is lower than needed to provide a unfettered smoth acceleration. I normally rev up to 3,000 to 3,500 RPM and shifting and releasing clutch quickly ensures smooth 1st to 2nd transition.

I learned to rev match by foot with 2019 Ecoboost pretty well. I now have a GT and have to do a manual rev match during upshift when rowing slow. Gas pedal is soft, so slight pressure will get RPM up. Keep trying you'll get it mastered.

 

[thunderstrike]

Find us a video without throat clearing.

 

[FUN2RIDEFAST]

If you are just talking about smooth shifting, then you need to watch the RPM drop after you press the clutch. The RPM will drop and pause at the correct RPM for the next gear. If you wait (and it seems quite a long time for the 1-2 shift), you will have smooth shifts.....the time on the 2-3, 3-4 is much less than the 1-2...

You are totally correct. Takes a couple seconds for rpm to drop. Smooth when done that way.

 

[FUN2RIDEFAST]

1-2 always gets me. There is just no nice point to shift when going slow or fast. The rev hang, crappy mt82 combined with slop in the prop shaft and diff back lash make it nigh on impossible. Maybe if you address the backlash issue it would be acceptable. Personally I shift to second ASAP below 3k revs then use second gear as intended. Had the lockout issue twice and don’t want to play that game again. Never had this issue with other manual performance or race cars with getrag, zf etc boxes. I suspect swapping the box for a tremec or hewland would also fix this particular annoyance.
Another problem on our roads is the ratio for 1st gear. It’s too damn low. Second gear is just a fraction too high to replace first entirely sadly.

Zzzzzzzzz

 

[FUN2RIDEFAST]

Can either practice taking off in 2nd or shift to 2nd shortly after you get moving.....so you got a 2k rpm shift really smooth and then you can let the gas pedal eat a little more in 2nd. Alot of time i start in 2nd, shift to 3rd at about 4k and roll that out to 60mph and shift to 6th. I use both of the above most of the time just cruising. I dont wanna be "that guy" hauling ass at every light but i dont wanna have everybody pulling ahead either lol.

practice those a few times and see which you like better, should speed you up a little without romping on it. nothing wrong with skipping gears. Its extremely rare i go thru every gear unless racing.

These cars will do great in any gear at just 2000 rpm. It's my first six speed and once I figured it out my around town mileage improved a lot. Very easy tyranny to use but lots better with the Barton shifter. Leaps and bounds better.

 

[FUN2RIDEFAST]

Just remember that the hanging rev is actually there to make it engage better in the next gear. If you shift exceptionally fast, then yes the driveline will jerk as the engine spins down to match the new input shaft speed of the trans.

Programming is an easy way to get the throttle feel closer to a cable. You can also tweak the accelerator position-to-throttle blade setting to get it close to 1:1 ratio. The stock setting isn't too bad though as long as you are in normal mode. Track mode is worse. Practice is best. Getting the shifter under control better than stock will help. Getting the clutch spring out (Or a smaller assist) will help. The truth is you'll never be able to replicate a DCT or even a good auto though, it's just the way it is. The auto trans has multiple shift elements that can clutch/de-clutch simultaneously because each of planetary gear sets (Or "Packs" as sometimes called) have multiple clutches. With the DCT, obviously there is zero "shift" time as all that needs to happen is a brief clutch application to switch trans output shafts.

Know that the faster you shift, the harder you apply the synchros, and the faster they wear - there is no way around it. Technique helps with the wear though. I can't say how long the trans will last with hamfisted shifts, because each person varies with their shifts. I do a lot of city driving, and even though I drive like a grandpa most of the time, if I'm shifting more than you, then my trans will fail sooner. So you can take that into account as well.

It isn't rocket science for God's sake.

 

[Falc'man]

2019 Mustang GT Manual

Guys I need some advise and guidance on how to shift quick from first to second and possible third without causing jerky shifts and also not causing any cluth damage.

I can shift smooth but I feel like when I do smooth shifting the car is so slow and people who have a corolla can just take off when stopped at a red light and I can catch up to the speeds eventually.

I want to know how you all shift gears and at what rpms and how do you release clutch properly to shift quick but without any jerky moves.

Thanks!!!

When in first pull back the lever as hard as you like and you'll find it won't come out of gear until you back off the throttle for a slight moment, during which the lever will come out of first gear's gate (without you touching the clutch pedal).
As it does so, simultaneously give the clutch pedal a quick jab as you slam it into 2nd. Not even a jab; press it down and slide your foot off it.
Whole process shouldn't take more than a tenth of second.

 

[3star2nr]

2019 Mustang GT Manual

Guys I need some advise and guidance on how to shift quick from first to second and possible third without causing jerky shifts and also not causing any cluth damage.

I can shift smooth but I feel like when I do smooth shifting the car is so slow and people who have a corolla can just take off when stopped at a red light and I can catch up to the speeds eventually.

I want to know how you all shift gears and at what rpms and how do you release clutch properly to shift quick but without any jerky moves.

Thanks!!!

It's not about speed. You can shift really fast and not even feel it... Its all about clutch control.

The "trick" is to know where the clutch engagement point is and slow your leg down right as you get to that point and slowly slip it there.

Try this exercise every time your at a light on a flat road. Or in a parking lot. Put the car in 1st gear and practice moving off just by releasing the clutch... Do not press the gas. Keep practicing and eventually you'll learn how to control your leg so the car moves off without jerking... This is actually a technique they used to teach old racing drivers back in the day.

Once u master clutch control speed comes naturally. Its ALWAYS better to be smooth than to be fast. In fact if you take a ride with an actual professional racing driver, they are so smooth with steering, weight control and shifting that you can drink a cup of hot coffee while their driving at the limit and not worry about burning yourself.

With practice you'll get there. You never want to slam the tranny... In fact it's better to shift slow and smooth you'll gain more than risk a lockout, or grind.

And in reality whats the prize you're racing so hard to win? The moneyshift trophy? Congrats, you beat that civic. Your price is a 3000.00 rebuild...

 

[3star2nr]

Warning: below I'm explaining a very dangerous shifting technique that will destroy your synchros and shift forks if you mess up....

When I'm driving fast (rarely) i use a hybrid way of shifting.

Basically you develop a technique of releasing the gas pedal in such away that u use it to take pressure off the trans and driveline, then you start moving the gearstick, while your pressing tbe clutch pedal. Once the pedal gets all the way to the floor you're in the next gear, then you simply release the clutch as fast as you can then slow your leg down before you get to the engagement point, to smoothly engage the next gear.

To learn it first master clutch control, then you can start working on throttle control and timing.

To control the load on the driveline using only the throttle, the trick is to learn how to "pop the throttle" or release the throttle in a somewhat abrupt way, so it releases pressure on the driveline for a split second. In that moment it will actually allow you to slip the gear into neutral, and If u move fast enough u can slip it into the next gear.

To practice it, (safely) simply go in 2nd gear, Keep your hand on the shifter, floor the throttle, release it, floor it again, release. Dont shift. Just rest your hand on the gear.

You'll actually start feeling when the driveline is loaded versus unloaded. Loaded it vibrates, unloaded, it feels "loose" for a split second.( In older cars with the shifter in the trans, u could actually see the shifter move forward when u release the load on the tranny.)

Once you develop that feel, and learn how to release the gas properly you can move on.

If you combine this technique with the clutch you can get lightning fast upshifts.

If you get good at throttle control and rev matching its even possible to upshift without using the clutch.... It's dangerous but its possible. This works really well from 3rd gear upwards. Its impossible to clutchless upshift in 1st and 2nd because the gears are spinning too fast

It's best to learn this technique on an old beater pick up... It will work in any vehicle once u master it.

Another thing to note, is this technique is best used in a straight line, especially starting out. You do not want to do this while taking a sweeping corner, or on a wet road, or with the steering wheel turned.

As a beginner you can unsettle the balance of the car and cause it to spin...

 

[3star2nr]

to be honest bro, the best part about manuals isn't in the upshifts but in the downshifts. Learning how to heel and toe and nailing the perfect rev match is a technique that takes years of practice but when you get good at it its an incredible feeling.

What it does is it allows you to shift into a lower gear like from 3rd to 2nd or 4th to 3rd without feeling it. When u get really good at it you can basically hop off the clutch pedal, and it snatches the next gear so smoothly you literally dont even feel the body shake.

The sound the engine makes is also very visceral.

The ability to Rev match and heel and toe and the satisfaction you get is something that no automatic, dsg etc will ever be able to replace, and once u learn it you'll actually get why manuals rock.

Until then you're just scratching the surface.

Note on these cars heel and toe works seamlessly in sport+ I use it every day, in normal mode it works but u have to exaggerate your movements more and press the gas pedal deeper to make the engine rev up.

I heel and toe or rev match everyday, every down shift. Its the only way to master it

 

[3star2nr]

Here are some great videos



I liked sennas video more the second video the driver is hovering over the clutch pedal, which is a bad habbit

But u see how fast both, are shifting and if u listen to the engine and look at the body the car isn't jerking during the shifts because their clutch control good

 

[CrashOverride]

[several posts snipped]

You must be a very accomplished racer. All outstanding posts. I've read about race car drivers knowing their trans so well, that one time whilst leaving the pit, with the clutch FUBAR'd, the driver was able to clutchless shift and gt back on the track.

I think the heal/toe rev-matched downshift is easier with a lightweight flywheel car because the rev's per second (e.g. acceleration of engine RPM) is higher, leading to a quicker 'stab' at the throttle. I'm sure throttle-by-wire has made this more difficult, but I have to give Ford credit, the throttle by wire on the mustang is calibrated very quick, compared to other vehicles I've driven.

And your gasless/clutch technique, I do that every day in traffic out here. We are blessed with fuel injection nowadays, where the engine will allow us to be a bit sloppier on the engagement, and the IAC (Or ETC in TBW cars) will react fast enough to recover. I remember an 1982 Camaro I had with the T5. It had the Rochester Quadrajet carb, and if you didn't modulate the clutch just right off idle, it would "reward" you by stalling and calling you out as an incompetent idiot. But yeah this is great advice, and I use it a lot when I'm teaching people how to drive a stick. Traffic out here is so bad, a lot of times, I will let the car "drive itself" in 1st gear (I have a 3.73 rear) at idle. Sad thing is, sometimes that is too fast.

As you said, and my buddy a semi-professional open-wheel-ford racer told me, it's all about settling the chassis. If you upset the chassis, then you exceed the grid of your 4 contact patches (If you are driving at 10/10 on a curve) and you have a bad day.

 

[3star2nr]

You must be a very accomplished racer. All outstanding posts. I've read about race car drivers knowing their trans so well, that one time whilst leaving the pit, with the clutch FUBAR'd, the driver was able to clutchless shift and gt back on the track.

I think the heal/toe rev-matched downshift is easier with a lightweight flywheel car because the rev's per second (e.g. acceleration of engine RPM) is higher, leading to a quicker 'stab' at the throttle. I'm sure throttle-by-wire has made this more difficult, but I have to give Ford credit, the throttle by wire on the mustang is calibrated very quick, compared to other vehicles I've driven.

And your gasless/clutch technique, I do that every day in traffic out here. We are blessed with fuel injection nowadays, where the engine will allow us to be a bit sloppier on the engagement, and the IAC (Or ETC in TBW cars) will react fast enough to recover. I remember an 1982 Camaro I had with the T5. It had the Rochester Quadrajet carb, and if you didn't modulate the clutch just right off idle, it would "reward" you by stalling and calling you out as an incompetent idiot. But yeah this is great advice, and I use it a lot when I'm teaching people how to drive a stick. Traffic out here is so bad, a lot of times, I will let the car "drive itself" in 1st gear (I have a 3.73 rear) at idle. Sad thing is, sometimes that is too fast.

As you said, and my buddy a semi-professional open-wheel-ford racer told me, it's all about settling the chassis. If you upset the chassis, then you exceed the grid of your 4 contact patches (If you are driving at 10/10 on a curve) and you have a bad day.

Not a racer at all lol just an amateur enthusiast. I've done a few track days but mostly drive A lot on the streets.

You CAN heel and toe the stock GT but like you said a lightweight flywheel would make it easier. That said it blips really well in sport + mode as the throttle tuning is better.

Ford did a great job setting up the throttles on these cars for sure

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