My number came up on the waiting list... but ADM

[drmustang]

You are correct and I agree, but that doesn't mean its wrong if someone is paying more because they want it first. People do that all the time. Demand is high in the beginning and the supply is low. This means average price goes up. Once the demand dies down and there is adequate supply the average selling price drops. Its a very simple concept.

That was not my point at all. I doubt if there are any of us here who don't understand the supply and demand thing. Thanks for the lesson but you can be pretty certain that we get that part already. Enjoy.

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[Blk2015GT]

You are correct and I agree, but that doesn't mean its wrong if someone is paying more because they want it first. People do that all the time. Demand is high in the beginning and the supply is low. This means average price goes up. Once the demand dies down and there is adequate supply the average selling price drops. Its a very simple concept.

Bingo. Being a sucker isn't illegal or unethical. If someone wants to pay more it's their lifestyle choice to do so.

 

[krt22]

^^^ This statement you made above ALONE, is EXACTLY what makes the dealer the bad guy. Pure greed. :doh:

Let's say you have a house, a very nice house, you decide to sell the house, for a VERY fair price given all the other houses around in your neighborhood. All of a sudden you have 6 buyers in line, they all know the market and that this house at this price is quite rare. All wanting the house, they put various offers in over your asking price. How would you decide which to sell it too? Take the most money? Sell at asking price by putting all the names in a hat?

Conversely, you know your house is valuable, and the only one for sale on the block. You decide you risk it and ask for waaay more than fair value for the given area. Now you might catch an eager buyer, easy money in the bank. OR no one bites at your price, you do get some offers however, and you have to decide. Do you hold out and risk another house going for sale on the block creating more supply..or do you negotiate with the buyers who are willing to pay less than your asking

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending ADM or saying its right, but it's simply part of the market place in rare occasions like this when you have a brand new hot item and don't yet have a fully running production line. Some will pay it, many will not (myself included), and in 6-12 months it will be a thing of the past when flat rock is pumping out GT350s.

I can assure you the dealers who have huge ADMs still have cars/allocations unsold, because most arent willing to pay that much. Im sure they caught a few, but most are not and then they will adjust accordingly

 

[grayforge]

The house example is an interesting one since my wife went through this selling her previous house. It was a quaint little house in a booming neighborhood. She had 3 offers on the house. Interestingly, she didn't take the highest one (from some guy who's agent said he wanted to show off a cool house to his friends), but went with a lower offer from a woman who was getting back into home ownership after a long hiatus.

She went with her heart vs greed.

However, the house analogy is flawed since there isn't a manufacturer's suggested retail price. And the seller isn't typically a company. You don't see Best Buy adding ADM on the latest Samsung 4k OLED TV. Car dealerships are the only places I know that add markup to MSRPs.

 

[Hack]

Forking over a 5 or 10 thousand dollar premium for a item that will sharply depreciate in value is a degree of stupidity that the majority of cannot even comprehend.

Please don't think that the guys who can afford to do so are the first suckers to jump. I know and work with people who could afford a parking lot full of GT350s and can tell you that none of them would consider a purchase in excess of what the manufacturer prints on the price tag. These people are quite shrewd and know what they can get for their money. I can remember when guys were rearended with these ridiculous ADMs on the 2007 GT500s. You are literally throwing that money out in the street for someone else to enjoy.

I believe there are plenty of people out there with money to whom that money is the most important thing in the world. A lot of times that is why people are rich. Money is so important to them that they will do anything to get more. I'm just not that way. I've negotiated deals (buying a used car, for instance) where I knew I could get the car cheaper but I wanted to be nice to the other guy. My karma and self image is more important to me than saving a few dollars. I agree with you that someone who worships money over everything else in this world would not pay an ADM unless they thought they could somehow end up making even more money re-selling at an even higher price.

I don't worship money. I pay my retirement first. After that everything I have left is for doing what I want. You only live once and you have to decide whether living with extra dollars in your account is more fun or whether driving a cool new car is more fun. I know which one I prefer!

I believe I will enjoy having a GT350 more than I would enjoy the extra money in my pocket. I think it's a logical decision and it's my decision to make. No stupidity involved, just different priorities.

 

[krt22]

The house example is an interesting one since my wife went through this selling her previous house. It was a quaint little house in a booming neighborhood. She had 3 offers on the house. Interestingly, she didn't take the highest one (from some guy who's agent said he wanted to show off a cool house to his friends), but went with a lower offer from a woman who was getting back into home ownership after a long hiatus.

She went with her heart vs greed.

However, the house analogy is flawed since there isn't a manufacturer's suggested retail price. And the seller isn't typically a company. You don't see Best Buy adding ADM on the latest Samsung 4k OLED TV. Car dealerships are the only places I know that add markup to MSRPs.

Understood, not all dealers are asking markup, some are. I too have heard of sellers going to slightly lower offers because they liked the buyer, but in rare cases did they take the lowest offer as well (especially when all offers were over their initial asking price)

And MSRP is just that, SUGGESTED pricing. No one complains when you get a car well below MSRP either, so if you are willing to pay less for a car that isnt likely to be sold other wise, why is it a huge stretch that some dealers will ask for more on a car that will 100% sell. You don't have to pay it, if you want msrp or lower, you just have to wait it out. If the dealers had a lottery for their allocations and there were still more buyers than cars, then you would simply create a secondary market between private parties for those who have to get it first and cant wait for supply to catch up

 

[grayforge]

Understood, not all dealers are asking markup, some are. I too have heard of sellers going to slightly lower offers because they liked the buyer, but in rare cases did they take the lowest offer as well (especially when all offers were over their initial asking price)

And MSRP is just that, SUGGESTED pricing. No one complains when you get a car well below MSRP either, so if you are willing to pay less for a car that isnt likely to be sold other wise, why is it a huge stretch that some dealers will ask for more on a car that will 100% sell. You don't have to pay it, if you want msrp or lower, you just have to wait it out. If the dealers had a lottery for their allocations and there were still more buyers than cars, then you would simply create a secondary market between private parties for those who have to get it first and cant wait for supply to catch up

True... If dealers sold at MSRP for these cars, many buyers would be resellers. Unless there's a way to prevent scalping, like a contract that says you can't resell the car for a profit within a year. Hard to enforce though.

 

[krt22]

Nearly impossible and likely non-legally binding anyway.

 

[drmustang]

I believe there are plenty of people out there with money to whom that money is the most important thing in the world. A lot of times that is why people are rich. Money is so important to them that they will do anything to get more. I'm just not that way. I've negotiated deals (buying a used car, for instance) where I knew I could get the car cheaper but I wanted to be nice to the other guy. My karma and self image is more important to me than saving a few dollars. I agree with you that someone who worships money over everything else in this world would not pay an ADM unless they thought they could somehow end up making even more money re-selling at an even higher price.

I don't worship money. I pay my retirement first. After that everything I have left is for doing what I want. You only live once and you have to decide whether living with extra dollars in your account is more fun or whether driving a cool new car is more fun. I know which one I prefer!

I believe I will enjoy having a GT350 more than I would enjoy the extra money in my pocket. I think it's a logical decision and it's my decision to make. No stupidity involved, just different priorities.

Sounds as if you are ready and willing to pay the gouge imposed by a dealer. Your choice my friend. You are a retailers dream customer.

 

[krt22]

drmustang...do you have a car on order?

 

[Hack]

Sounds as if you are ready and willing to pay the gouge imposed by a dealer. Your choice my friend. You are a retailers dream customer.

We will see how it goes. It's not black and white to me. I will make a judgment when the decision point comes. The dealer is buying a GT350 with the options I want and we will sit down to negotiate when the car comes in.

I just might be close to a dream customer, but I do negotiate hard and typically I play multiple dealers against each other prior to buying cars. It's a big purchase and I'm not that much of a sucker that I will leave a lot of money on the table.

I don't have any concerns about karma when negotiating hard against a dealer, either. They can handle themselves and they won't agree to a deal that doesn't make them money. This car is a little different than the mass market stuff, though as the dealer has more leverage due to lower quantities of cars available. I agree with what you've said in the past that the prices and ADMs will most likely come down. That will be in the back of my mind when I listen to the dealer's proposal.

 

[aethyr]

Strike one. Lawyer and nothing to do with the auto industry nor anyone in my family.

Strike two. People pay what someone will take EVERY DAY. Again as an example, a house purchase price or apartment rent is only worth what someone will pay for it. There are bidding wars every minute and house auctions where people pay over asking as well.

If a seller is asking $50k over market value on a house and you don't want to pay it you move on. If I want to pay the inflated price the seller is the bad guy? Puhlease. If you wanted to sell your house right now and could get someone to pay $50k over market value you'd be clicking your heels all the way to the bank. Don't pretend to be a self-righteous do-gooder that you would say "I'm sorry buyer but I cannot accept the $50k extra in good conscious, just what the appraisal value is."

99% of the ADM whiners here would never do that, yet want to whine and be butthurt when the dealer as the seller is doing it. It's called a free market, you can ask whatever you want as a seller for an item if people will pay it. No one owes it to you to sell an item (especially limited number made item) for what it is worth.

Strike three. Mere opinion. It is nothing more than an assumption that there is customer loyalty to a dealership because you got x price; good or bad. I don't feel some pressing need to go back to the same dealership because I got X plan on my GT. There are MANY more aspects than just price; and frankly I may not go back because the order experience was not good- they didn't get me an order number for weeks, didn't know how to track the car, didn't know you could add 68b premier trim- basically just poorly trained not done intentionally.

I have zero loyalty to them because of a good price. But frankly, they dont care what you or I think, you are merely one of the 5-6 digits of customers just in your area and there are only so many car brands. Whether I like them or not their lot is filled daily with customers so don't hold this false belief you or anyone here (because of the GT350) are snubbing them. People move into the community constantly and become new customers of theirs, so you pretending to snub them means very little in the scheme of things.

Mustanglurkers and Hack seem to get it. We're in a free economy, pay to play.

Free market? Its not as free as you think. Once again, no response to the whining the dealers did to get direct sales outlawed? They whined to remove a competitor out of the playing field. So don't get all snooty and superior on whining. Yeah, we're whining about ADM. But that's all we do, whine on the internet. Your "free market" dealership buddies whined and changed the law. Big difference.

In the end, none of us are saying that ADM should be illegal. We're simply saying that ADM is douchebaggery, just like any other douchebag that isn't braking the law per se, but is still being a douchebag. Do we have your permission to call him a douchebag?

The house example is flawed. Houses do have an implicit msrp - the appraisal done by the lender. Due to having learned some of the lessons from the stupid housing crash (caused by ADM mentality, btw, maximizing profits on housing at all costs), a bank won't give a loan for a house significantly over MSRP. $5k on a $50k car is 10%. Fine, but $20k ADM on a $50k car is 40%. You're on crack if you think the lender will give you loan for $700k on a house appraised at $500k. They'll give you a loan for $550k at 10% markup, but not a 40% one.

Pure douchebaggery greed fueled the housing market, from sellers to the banks and guess what happened from that - our economy got f'd, which we're still recovering from. So yeah, I don't think using housing as example for ADM is a great idea.

 

[DrumReaper]

True... If dealers sold at MSRP for these cars, many buyers would be resellers. Unless there's a way to prevent scalping, like a contract that says you can't resell the car for a profit within a year. Hard to enforce though.

Bingo!!!

 

[krt22]

Lending requirements and final sales price are two different things, not really sure how that has to do with anything. There are also plenty of cash buyers (for cars and homes) where the appraisal is meaningless.

 

[Guardstang]

True... If dealers sold at MSRP for these cars, many buyers would be resellers. Unless there's a way to prevent scalping, like a contract that says you can't resell the car for a profit within a year. Hard to enforce though.

Okay then give me the ADM back if I still have the car a year later- Actually I don't like the ideal of ADM but we live in a free market society and I think I've had enough of gov't interference in our personal lives. I never intended to buy a GT350 so thank goodness I don't have the lust in my heart to have one but to be told "Its yours--plus $17,000" has got to be gut wrenching--imagine financing the ADM. If I had been told I had to pay sticker on my Ecoboost I would have walked and told them to call me when times are tough.
One of my customers sold a Charger Hellcat and the customer wanted to exchange it under the dealers one week to be satisfied policy(probably seen his insurance bill)--the dealer happily took the car back because now it's used and they can really jamb on ADM because Chrysler Canada can't stop them from ordering more Hellcats.

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