Moderna Vaccine

[Atlas1]

CDC data shows that unvaccinated are outpacing the vaccinated by far when it comes to Covid infections and deaths.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-status

Infection Cases

Deaths

can you post those same charts up to the most recent available data? also, please post them both with the same date range. i'm curious to see all of the those trend lines up to now. thanks.
cases are a little harder to analyze because we can't control fully who is taking the tests. it could be people with the vax get sick and think they are safe and don't bother with testing. it could be that unvaxxed are scared and test more. ultimately it doesn't matter and let's assume these charts are 100% accurate and account for all cases and deaths. i would like to focus on deaths as cases is meaningless for the most part. we are in the middle of cold/flu season. if we started testing for the number of people fighting off viruses it would not be pretty. what matters more is deaths.
those charts do not take into account many of the factors i have been trying to point out. what do the unvaxxed deaths look like? are they otherwise healthy children that are dying in droves? are they elderly, obese, smokers? these distinctions matter to the point i've made all along....... these shots should not be mandated in any way or form, particularly for those that are statistically not at risk from covid especially children. furthermore, the chart could show 100% of the deaths are in unvaxxed and it would still not make the case that the vax should be forced on anyone. neither you nor anyone else is in a moral position to dictate what someone else must do with their own body. by sharing a country with people that might be sick from time to time you could be more at risk yourself. that is unfortunately a reality of living in a free country. if you would like to live somewhere that has an authoritative body that strictly governs your health i'm sure you can find a place on the map. as i said in an earlier post, this isn't that place.
one other point regarding those charts......they do not include adverse reactions up to and including death that have occurred by way of the vaccines. i am not arguing that they are common or even likely to occur but if we were to graph that as a chart, i'm pretty sure those adverse events are not effecting the unvaxxed population.

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[Burkey]

can you post those same charts up to the most recent available data? also, please post them both with the same date range. i'm curious to see all of the those trend lines up to now. thanks.
cases are a little harder to analyze because we can't control fully who is taking the tests. it could be people with the vax get sick and think they are safe and don't bother with testing. it could be that unvaxxed are scared and test more. ultimately it doesn't matter and let's assume these charts are 100% accurate and account for all cases and deaths. i would like to focus on deaths as cases is meaningless for the most part. we are in the middle of cold/flu season. if we started testing for the number of people fighting off viruses it would not be pretty. what matters more is deaths.
those charts do not take into account many of the factors i have been trying to point out. what do the unvaxxed deaths look like? are they otherwise healthy children that are dying in droves? are they elderly, obese, smokers? these distinctions matter to the point i've made all along....... these shots should not be mandated in any way or form, particularly for those that are statistically not at risk from covid especially children. furthermore, the chart could show 100% of the deaths are in unvaxxed and it would still not make the case that the vax should be forced on anyone. neither you nor anyone else is in a moral position to dictate what someone else must do with their own body. by sharing a country with people that might be sick from time to time you could be more at risk yourself. that is unfortunately a reality of living in a free country. if you would like to live somewhere that has an authoritative body that strictly governs your health i'm sure you can find a place on the map. as i said in an earlier post, this isn't that place.
one other point regarding those charts......they do not include adverse reactions up to and including death that have occurred by way of the vaccines. i am not arguing that they are common or even likely to occur but if we were to graph that as a chart, i'm pretty sure those adverse events are not effecting the unvaxxed population.

Or it might be that the kind of person who cares enough about their fellow people to get themselves vaccinated is the kind of person who’s more likely to get tested, for the exact same reason.
We’ve already heard from at least one unvaccinated individual here who has “probably” had Covid twice, but doesn’t seem to worry about getting tested.
Is not believe that he represents the norm here, but it’s not too far fetched to thin plastic that it’s happening.

Those who don’t believe the virus is real, do you think they’re getting tested? They certainly won’t be vaccinated.

What about the ones that won’t wear a mask? Why would they bother getting tested? What point would it serve when they’ve already spent a few days breathing their germs onto others? What’s a few more days of doing exactly the same thing?

 

[Atlas1]

Prevention: When was the last time you read the CDC website? That is where the italic part of my post is from. I guess they are not an "authority"? Vac vs. non-vac: read GTpony's post.

Again, you are pushing a false narrative with misinformation. It's a fact....

the cdc can say that these vaccines prevent infection all they want. but at some point you will have to question their words. how many more vaxxed individuals are going to have to test positive before this occurs?

Most of it.

i'm sorry but that is not a good enough answer to my question. it doesn't add anything to your argument or this discussion.

Stats are fun to play with... not sure what you mean here. Can you clarify?

certainly. the number of children for example that have died from covid while tragic, is statistically an irrelevant number. my argument from my first post was that since this is true, we should not be rushing to give them a vax that presents a level of risk to them now (short term), and potentially a risk later (long term). it would be immoral to do so.

 

[GT Pony]

the classical definition of vaccine is that it prevents infection.

Nope ... a vaccine doesn't "prevent" the virus from infecting someone and doing what it does once inside the body. A vaccine triggers the natural immune system to be better ready to recognize and fight the virus once it does infect.

https://www.britannica.com/science/vaccine

 

[GT Pony]

can you post those same charts up to the most recent available data? also, please post them both with the same date range. i'm curious to see all of the those trend lines up to now. thanks.

It is the latest data ... I gave the link to the CDC webpage. Go check it out for yourself. You can also look at the delta wave in the data and clearly see the difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated. The virus will infect and kill more unvaccinated people by far compared to vaccinated people - no surprise really.

If you have better data, post it up.

 

[Burkey]

the cdc can say that these vaccines prevent infection all they want. but at some point you will have to question their words. how many more vaxxed individuals are going to have to test positive before this occurs?

Well….according to the data in front of me, 204,000,000 Americans are vaccinated. If we assume that the vaccines are approximately 50% effective, I’d expect to see 102,000,000 infections in the vaccinated population in the near future (Given that nearly 600,000 infections were recorded yesterday).
Let me know when the numbers work for the story you’re trying to tell.

Also, it’s not just the CDC. It’s every peak body in every developed nation because they all reciew the data from the studies that have been conducted across this pandemic.

 

[Mitch03]

No, I’m, not saying that at all. EXPERTS have repeatedly demonstrated that this is the case. I understand that you don’t want to accept it, but facts are facts. I even quoted the figures for you earlier.
Here’s some figures again, just so that we can be clear on this point.

“All three Covid-19 vaccines available in Australia at the moment are equally effective at preventing hospitalisation, ICU admissions, and death. The three vaccines are Moderna, AstraZeneca, and Pfizer

They are very good at that. Where they differ in effectiveness is their ability to prevent infection. Pfizer and Moderna are slightly better than AstraZeneca at doing that. So that’s stopping you from getting any infection at all. Astra and Moderna are approximately 80% effective at reducing your chances of you getting infected. AstraZeneca is about 67% effective.“

You want to argue the point? Go argue with the experts.
I’m not responding to the rest until you acknowledge that you’re demonstrably wrong on this point.
This isn’t controversial.
Yes, the vaccines are less effective against omicron. Agreed. But less effective doesn’t mean completely ineffective.

You are so wrong. Stop spreading false information. The vaccine does not stop infection and in fact can get infected and spread the virus. Where have you been......this is old news. Maybe you guys in AU are censored On certain things.......

 

[Burkey]

You are so wrong. Stop spreading false information. The vaccine does not stop infection and in fact can get infected and spread the virus. Where have you been......this is old news. Maybe you guys in AU are censored On certain things.......

Please find me the study that clearly demonstrates how vaccination cannot prevent infection in any way shape or form. I’ll wait.

 

[Atlas1]

No, I’m, not saying that at all. EXPERTS have repeatedly demonstrated that this is the case. I understand that you don’t want to accept it, but facts are facts. I even quoted the figures for you earlier.
Here’s some figures again, just so that we can be clear on this point.

“All three Covid-19 vaccines available in Australia at the moment are equally effective at preventing hospitalisation, ICU admissions, and death. The three vaccines are Moderna, AstraZeneca, and Pfizer

They are very good at that. Where they differ in effectiveness is their ability to prevent infection. Pfizer and Moderna are slightly better than AstraZeneca at doing that. So that’s stopping you from getting any infection at all. Astra and Moderna are approximately 80% effective at reducing your chances of you getting infected. AstraZeneca is about 67% effective.“

You want to argue the point? Go argue with the experts.
I’m not responding to the rest until you acknowledge that you’re demonstrably wrong on this point.
This isn’t controversial.
Yes, the vaccines are less effective against omicron. Agreed. But less effective doesn’t mean completely ineffective.

i'm sorry but too many vaxxed people are testing positive at the moment to believe those numbers. you're welcome to take those numbers at face value but i will not. here in the US we were told a week ago in response to the dramatic increase in the number of vaxxed/positive cases that it was because of omicron....something like 75% of cases were that variant. fast forward to this week and that number has been revised to less than 30%. i'm supposed to believe that most of these positive cases are still due to omicron getting by the vaccine?
this leads to another point i made earlier. if the vaccines are always 1 variant behind, the sales pitch for them is not nearly as strong.
you acknowledge the vaccines are less effective against omicron, which is why there will be booster for omicron correct? by the time those are here we will have yet another variant if history has taught us anything. where does it end?
btw, i was just reading some news out of Antarctica you might have seen. despite as serious of a protocol as one could conceive, two thirds of the researchers there are now positive for the virus. the variant is not yet known but it is assumed to be omicron. all of the researchers are vaxxed. ignore the fact surrounding doing everything possible to keep the virus out for a minute and tell me where on the effectiveness scale you would place the shots they took? you mentioned less effective but not completely ineffective. is 1/3 a good percentage? i know as a batting average its tremendous but in this scenario of preventing infection how would you grade it? i might use slightly stronger language than "not completely ineffective" myself

 

[Atlas1]

Or it might be that the kind of person who cares enough about their fellow people to get themselves vaccinated is the kind of person who’s more likely to get tested, for the exact same reason.

this is a meaningless statement. whether someone gets the vax does not determine their level of caring of others.

Those who don’t believe the virus is real, do you think they’re getting tested? They certainly won’t be vaccinated.

i don't know anyone that believes the virus isnt real. do you? after 2 years those are not serious people and i don't think the discussion benefits by including them or attempting to speak for them.

What about the ones that won’t wear a mask? Why would they bother getting tested? What point would it serve when they’ve already spent a few days breathing their germs onto others? What’s a few more days of doing exactly the same thing?

what type of mask? anything below an n95 is a waste of time. it is theater. but lets stick to the discussion of vaccines or this is really going to get into the weeds quickly and we'll never recover
as to the other questions i can't answer those for the individuals you are talking about.

 

[Mitch03]

Please find me the study that clearly demonstrates how vaccination cannot prevent infection in any way shape or form. I’ll wait.

Nope ... a vaccine doesn't "prevent" the virus from infecting someone and doing what it does once inside the body. A vaccine triggers the natural immune system to be better ready to recognize and fight the virus once it does infect.

https://www.britannica.com/science/vaccine

the CDC has to change the definition to their agenda. Typical CDC. They’ve changed their stance so many times i can’t see how anyone would trust them.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article254111268.html

 

[Mitch03]

Please find me the study that clearly demonstrates how vaccination cannot prevent infection in any way shape or form. I’ll wait.

I refer to stopping the virus which it doesn’t do. they can get infected and spread the virus.

 

[Atlas1]

Nope ... a vaccine doesn't "prevent" the virus from infecting someone and doing what it does once inside the body. A vaccine triggers the natural immune system to be better ready to recognize and fight the virus once it does infect.

https://www.britannica.com/science/vaccine

yes, there are different types of vaccines. some prevent infection. we are getting awfully loose since covid about casually talking about their role however. 2 years ago we would not have been having this conversation. it is really only since the introduction of the covid vaccines and especially since the ever increasing numbers of vaxxed individuals testing positive, often with even mild symptoms, that some have been so strenuously making sure to point out that a vaccine won't always stop the virus. i would bet that before now, there would have been far more discussion about vaccine effectivity if the diseases that were supposed to be prevented were popping up as often in vaxxed individuals. would'nt you agree?

 

[jtmat]

the cdc can say that these vaccines prevent infection all they want. but at some point you will have to question their words. how many more vaxxed individuals are going to have to test positive before this occurs?

In other words, it is not that no reliable source has stated covid prevents disease, it is that you don't agree with it. Got it.

You are playing with words. Soon as you are wrong, you pivot. Be upfront and say you don't agree with the CDC instead of saying no one in authority has said "x".

i'm sorry but that is not a good enough answer to my question. it doesn't add anything to your argument or this discussion.

Until I see you start posting some proof on your outlandish/false claims, that is all you get.

certainly. the number of children for example that have died from covid while tragic, is statistically an irrelevant number. my argument from my first post was that since this is true, we should not be rushing to give them a vax that presents a level of risk to them now (short term), and potentially a risk later (long term). it would be immoral to do so.

It might always an irrelevant number unless it is your child. People want to put their child in the best situation for success. For some that might be the shot, for others it might be no shot.

Kids may have to take the shot to enroll in school so it won't matter. I agree, we don't know the long-term potential issues. Same flip of the coin we don't know the potential of the next variant either... it could skip adults and focus on kids (unlikely... but you talk in hypotheticals). In other words, no one can predict the future. Who knew?

I'll leave you with this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/28/health/omicron-kids-hospitalizations.html

“What we’re seeing in our I.C.U. makes it crystal clear that vaccination is the single most important thing you can do to protect your kid from getting sick with this virus,” said Dr. James Schneider, the chief of pediatric critical care at Cohen’s Children’s Medical Center in New York, which serves nearly two dozen hospitals in the Northwell Health system.

In recent days, Dr. Schneider said, five to eight children with Covid were in the intensive care unit, compared with none or one in November.

 

[Atlas1]

The virus will infect and kill more unvaccinated people by far compared to vaccinated people - no surprise really.

this is only half true. the percentage of vaxxed testing positive as of today in denmark is higher than unvaxxed. this trend is being seen elsewhere. i have not once doubted that the vaccine can reduce severe cases of covid. i have argued that the vax itself should not be mandated on anyone, certainly not those that the virus poses statistically no risk to. ultimately you, i, and everyone else has the freedom to decide if they want to get it. for some the threat of the virus is worse than any threat the vax would pose. this is not true for everyone however. and accepting this while making the best decision for one's own health does not make someone less compassionate about society.

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