Is the roush kit that bad?

[Chad1986]

I took a trip to Mexico and ran into a roush f150 reg cab. His 4wf launch got me of the line, but I made up for it up top and then some. Then a roush powered s550 it was much closer matched up high but I still walked a bit. I'm a full bolt on corba jet 15 car with some weight loss. I would really expect to see the s550 run away from me but that wasn't the case. Do the Whipple setups do better? I was not expecting to see a bolt on na car playing with supercharged cars.

Sponsored

 

[80FoxCoupe]

Probably a dealer installed kit with roush calibration. Not a real impressive performer. A real tune, pulley and e85 is a different story.

 

[SolarFlare]

No.....it’s worse.

 

[ugstang17]

I took a trip to Mexico and ran into a roush f150 reg cab. His 4wf launch got me of the line, but I made up for it up top and then some. Then a roush powered s550 it was much closer matched up high but I still walked a bit. I'm a full bolt on corba jet 15 car with some weight loss. I would really expect to see the s550 run away from me but that wasn't the case. Do the Whipple setups do better? I was not expecting to see a bolt on na car playing with supercharged cars.

The Roush tune is VERY conservative and FULL of nanny protection strategies. There are two packages they make, 670 phase 1 and 727 phase for 15-17 setups. A real Lund tune or equal will wake the package up.

The following is on 93 octane -

E.G. I had a 13 GT that ran a best of 12.74 fully stock on street tires. This was a stick shift car. Put the Roush phase 1 575 package on it and went to the track. It ran 12.65 best with a slightly improved 60 ft. I returned with a DR setup and the car ran 12.35 best. I contacted VMP. They sent me their tune and a pulley swap from the 85mm to the 82mm. The car picked up 70 RWHP and ran 11.49 best granny shifting. Granted the pulley helped but the big improvement was seen from the tune improvements that did away with the clutch protection strategy and others as well. BTW I was shifting at the same RPM in each scenario which was 7000 RPM. Comparing datalogs between the Roush tune and the VMP tune on passes, you could see where at shift point the TB would delay opening to 100% (82% open) command by as much as 254 millsec which allowed all momentum of the car to drop off, nose down, and then back into it again once the throttle actual was allowed to satisfy Throttle commanded. So when you do the math of .2 second average lost just in that aspect you see where the ET picked up on the VMP tune which deleted this senseless strategy and others -- unless of course you are someone who only likes to brag about a dyno number at a cruise in.

I can give you stories on 15+ setups with similar experiences at the track here localy as well who then wised up as well but I think this helps explain some.

That all said I have concluded that it may be time to send the current PD setup on the 17 the way of the dinosaur -- if I can find a way to hide the cost from my wife, and if I don't sell it this winter -- and go to a centri setup. Seeing the progress of my buddy 80FOXCOUPE with his 16 procharger setup I have become more acceptant that centri setups have come a long way just in the past 15 years both in efficiency and reliability. I would do a Vortech or Paxton dumbed down version of his E-85 setup and keep mine on 93 if i make the change. I looked into going TT but after digging deeper - POING! WAY TO MUCH FOR THIS TIGHT ASS! So centri may be the route. Still in the dremer stages at this point. Would be a no brainer if the car wasn't already FI to begin with.

 

[Chad1986]

Yeah I am going to go boost, but haven't made up my mind yet. I would like to keep my cobra jet setup so pribprob a centri or twins. I have a couple of mods left before I pony up though. Heads and cams. Already have the cams and talked to Bret barber the other day about heads. I'm just going to drop the motor out for that and a couple of other things like opg and such. After headsand cams it will be ready to take on big power with boost numbers still staying within reason. Down side to boost is the added weight and up front at that.

 

[Chad1986]

It seems like most tvs setups that retain a week tune and warranty seem to neuter the car to the point of where they don't necessarily run much better that a bolt on na car at times

 

[80FoxCoupe]

The Roush tune is VERY conservative and FULL of nanny protection strategies. There are two packages they make, 670 phase 1 and 727 phase for 15-17 setups. A real Lund tune or equal will wake the package up.

The following is on 93 octane -

E.G. I had a 13 GT that ran a best of 12.74 fully stock on street tires. This was a stick shift car. Put the Roush phase 1 575 package on it and went to the track. It ran 12.65 best with a slightly improved 60 ft. I returned with a DR setup and the car ran 12.35 best. I contacted VMP. They sent me their tune and a pulley swap from the 85mm to the 82mm. The car picked up 70 RWHP and ran 11.49 best granny shifting. Granted the pulley helped but the big improvement was seen from the tune improvements that did away with the clutch protection strategy and others as well. BTW I was shifting at the same RPM in each scenario which was 7000 RPM. Comparing datalogs between the Roush tune and the VMP tune on passes, you could see where at shift point the TB would delay opening to 100% (82% open) command by as much as 254 millsec which allowed all momentum of the car to drop off, nose down, and then back into it again once the throttle actual was allowed to satisfy Throttle commanded. So when you do the math of .2 second average lost just in that aspect you see where the ET picked up on the VMP tune which deleted this senseless strategy and others -- unless of course you are someone who only likes to brag about a dyno number at a cruise in.

I can give you stories on 15+ setups with similar experiences at the track here localy as well who then wised up as well but I think this helps explain some.

That all said I have concluded that it may be time to send the current PD setup on the 17 the way of the dinosaur -- if I can find a way to hide the cost from my wife, and if I don't sell it this winter -- and go to a centri setup. Seeing the progress of my buddy 80FOXCOUPE with his 16 procharger setup I have become more acceptant that centri setups have come a long way just in the past 15 years both in efficiency and reliability. I would do a Vortech or Paxton dumbed down version of his E-85 setup and keep mine on 93 if i make the change. I looked into going TT but after digging deeper - POING! WAY TO MUCH FOR THIS TIGHT ASS! So centri may be the route. Still in the dremer stages at this point. Would be a no brainer if the car wasn't already FI to begin with.

Ug, tell him what mph those setups ran. Since he is basing performance from a roll race. That will provide a better idea for him what those setups were capable of.

 

[ugstang17]

It seems like most tvs setups that retain a week tune and warranty seem to neuter the car to the point of where they don't necessarily run much better that a bolt on na car at times

Exactly. It's about protecting the engine for warranty while still producing a bragging number on the dyno. it equates to a no-go show boat to quote a Beach Boys song.

As for MPH the 14 trapped 129-131MPH on high 10 second passes. The 14 put down about 540ish RWHP and 6R80 was shifting at 7300 RPM. It weighed 3909 with me in it including the spare tire making those passes. The only weight reduction was the front sway bar.

 

[ugstang17]

I can only speak for the Roush tunes. I've heard...repeat....heard that the Whipple tune does a pretty good job. That said there can certainly be some gains seen by going with a Lund, PBD or VMP tune. The VMP 2.65 is a nice package as well. Justin and those guys aren't interested in selling warranties, they want results. So with their package you get one of hte best 3 tuners (IMHO) in the industry going that route.

If you are roll racing and money is no object...HELLION hands down. The ability to control your boost on the fly is awesome. Dial it back for cruising and fooling around on entrance ramps, turn it up for those .....suckers. LOL! Figure 8K with the tune and add $2500 if you have a speed shop install and complete the remote tune with Lund or whoever you choose. I'd love twins, but I love my wife more. I'd not sleep nights if I were to just pull 10K out of savings and do a twin setup even knowing I could get 4K back out of the TVS setup.

 

[Avispa]

ugstang, thanks for your first post in particular. Only been in the '16 for a couple months after 10 years with a mechanical throttle boosted car. It sure seems like there's a disconnect between the pedal and the throttle on the '16 and your data log backs that up. Still waiting for my JDM tune to see if it fixes the pedal mush. Not surprised that Roush may have built in some nanny controls in their tune. They can advertise peak power while not putting the car at serious risk with a huge torque band.

 

[ugstang17]

ugstang, thanks for your first post in particular. Only been in the '16 for a couple months after 10 years with a mechanical throttle boosted car. It sure seems like there's a disconnect between the pedal and the throttle on the '16 and your data log backs that up. Still waiting for my JDM tune to see if it fixes the pedal mush. Not surprised that Roush may have built in some nanny controls in their tune. They can advertise peak power while not putting the car at serious risk with a huge torque band.

No problem. Keep in mind the strategy only comes into effect at the higher RPM range under heavy acceleration. I found it was at its highest activity shifting at 7000 or higher. And the quicker you shifted would often effect it more. Wish I could remember which strategy number the datalog would log when this happened as well, but Justin at VMP clarified it as a "clutch protection strategy" that was easily tuned out. Under light to mid throttle you will not experience this...assuming the strategy works still similar to how it did on the 11-14 kits. You will only feel the slight lag that is common on DBW throttle vice linkage throttle.

Almost bought an 04SVT. Drove a friends that put down 575 and it was a blast. They are still a favorite. I'm a fan of Screamin Yellow (04) and Zinc Yellow (03). redfirepearl is awesome in either year as well.

 

[Red5.0]

I currently have a 16 auto with the roush phase 1 670hp package and will agree that it does not run like a supercharged car should due to the roush factory tune. Like you stated I have ran other na s550s and while I do beat them, I don’t beat them as bad as I would think the car should. I am currently waiting on the mak cat deletes and will be doing a lund tune. I have read that just with the tune only, it is a night and day difference. The car also put down 575whp on dyno jet the way it sits. I also have a spare tire kit and aftermarket subwoofer in the back so I might pull both out for weight reduction.

 

[Stage_3]

I am currently waiting on the mak cat deletes and will be doing a lund tune. I have read that just with the tune only, it is a night and day difference.

It does.
I have read this as well.

 

[hiccup]

I don't have FI just yet but plans for it when my factory warranty expires soon..one question..so how is it this roush 1 or 2 can put out numbers like that on a dyno but can't apply it to the street.?.or do some just have their NA putting out some big numbers..

 

[Red5.0]

Many variables, could be driver, traction or weight, also the gearing but in theory the supercharged roush should win unless the other car has weight reduction along with a healthy na and better gearing and driver.

Sponsored