Is Ford lacking on performance?

[Norm Peterson]

I have seen a number of complaints about the ride of the GT350 and GT350 R as well. Some people don't understand that if you want a car to handle like a race car, it's going to ride like a race car.

I was going to mention the GT350's as well but figured it'd be better to wait and see how the Camaro vs Camaro comparison went.

My '08 runs with wheel rates that are pretty close to GT350R wheel rates, assuming that the 350R spring rates being bandied about are at least close. To me - with the dampers dialed back some from their 'track' settings - that is a DD level of firmness, and that's with a stick axle, even.


Norm

Sponsored

 

[bootlegger]

There's an infinite number of dual-purpose points in between street-only and dedicated track/flat-out not street-legal. Your point on that spectrum is simply closer to street-only than mine or Fat's.

Maybe trailers are cheap. But you still have to find a place to park it. And then there's the matter of owning/registering/insuring/parking a tow vehicle, which means a truck or SUV (that I wouldn't want to drive in the first place and probably wouldn't use for any other purpose).

Nah, I really would rather drive my track toy on the street.


Norm

It's pretty clear that you fit into the DD car area and not into the hard core racer category. You have a daily driver that you can track. I am talking about someone who would would buy a $70k+ purpose built track car. If you can afford to buy that car and race it, you can easily afford a truck and trailer. My pathfinder + a trailer would be under $10k, and I drive the truck far more than my Mustang.

 

[bootlegger]

And why has our performance discussion turned into a discussion of which car has a mother-in-law approved ride?

Probably when the OP started talking about how Mustangs were lacking, since they didn't have the heated and cooled seats like the 1LE.

 

[Norm Peterson]

It's pretty clear that you fit into the DD car area and not into the hard core racer category. You have a daily driver that you can track. I am talking about someone who would would buy a $70k+ purpose built track car. If you can afford to buy that car and race it, you can easily afford a truck and trailer. My pathfinder + a trailer would be under $10k, and I drive the truck far more than my Mustang.

Like I said, there are many points between street-only and track-only, and while it's not nearly extreme enough for W2W or time trialing it does seem to be a good bit beyond what some of the other contributors to this discussion would ever choose to DD. And it's still softer and more luxurious than I really need; I'd be just as happy with less of those.

I guess I wasn't clear enough about flat-out not wanting to drive a truck or SUV. But that gets solved at the same time as meeting the requirements of the town I live in, the part about all vehicles kept on property having to be licensed/registered, insured, and inspected. No, I'm not going to store it off-property and deal with whatever that might involve, and if I have to meet my township's motor vehicle requirements I'm certainly going to street-drive it.

FWIW, during track season (spring and fall for me), it's been averaging around 20% track miles, some months a bit higher. I think it stands at about 10% track overall since I started tracking.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

What is tracking?

Do you actually race other cars or do you just drive about for a bit?

Perhaps more properly 'High Performance Driving Experience' or 'HPDE', where you're out on a real race track with other cars and you're driving faster and harder than you would (or ever should) on the street.

You are expected to drive within your comfort zone, not beyond it. This won't be the same for all drivers even if they were in identical cars.

1. This is not a race.
Plain and simple, Track Night events are all about having fun, enjoying your car and the track. Driving that is aggressive toward other drivers, out of control, or that puts yourself or others at risk will not be tolerated.

2. Be a good Neighbor
On your way to and from the track, obey ALL traffic laws, keep your car quiet, and be respectful of those who live in the area. At the track, keep up with your stuff, keep the drive lanes clear, throw away trash, and be sure to put a board under your jack so you don’t tear up any asphalt or sink into the sand.
Most of all, remember, the paddock is a “no wake zone” so keep it low and slow until you are on the track.

3. Same Team!
The best way to think about your on track experience is that you, everyone else on the track, the flaggers, and officials are on the same team. The team goal is to have fun and be safe. Being a good teammate means checking mirrors, giving space, having some patience, and generally looking out for one another.

4. Passing Rules:
The first two rules of passing are:
1) All passes are by point-by in marked passing zones only.
2) All passes are by point-by in marked passing zones only.

5. Passing Rules, Part 2: The Art of the Point-by
Point-bys are a form of communication. They are best when intentional and direct. It is essential that all point-bys be done out the window*, and there should be one for each car passing. Keep in mind, a point-by requires the participation of two extremities— your arm out the window and your foot coming off the throttle.
It is always preferred that point-bys be given to your left; however, if you do need to point to the right, please ensure that you are pointing across the roof.
*There may be some drivers participating in Track Night who have physical limitations that prevent them from being able to point out a window. For those, we ask that tape “arrows” be placed over the turn signals, and blinkers be used to signal a point.

6. Passing Rules, Part 3: But wait, there’s more!
Here is the thing— some cars are fast in corners and not-so-much on straights. Then there are the cars that might not be the easiest thing to handle in a turn, but go like stink in a straight line. You know who you are. So, if someone catches you in the tricky bits, let them by in the next passing zone. If you really are faster than them, they will point you by at the next one.

7. Get to know your flags
Yellow- Typically means a car has spun and for Track Night events it will mean that there is something on the track you need to worry about (water, oil, sand, rocks cars parts) — waving means it is on the track, stationary means it is off the track. In either case, give a lift and be prepared to alter your line.
Blue- The blue flag is a friendly reminder to check your mirror and let the train of cars behind you pass at the next passing zone. Fail to take the hint and the blue will turn into a black in a few corners.
Black- The message is simple— pit, now. If it is waving, it is for everyone, hopefully because the session is over. If it is stationary, it is just for you. You will know because the flagger is pointing at you, or because you just did something kinda dumb.
Red - This one means, pull to the side of the track (but still on the asphalt) smoothly and safely but as soon as possible. Wait to move until further signals are given by corner workers or other officials. Hopefully you won't see this one, as it would only be used in very serious situations where there is track blockage or a rescue vehicle is needed at the scene of an incident immediately.
Checkered - If you and your car are in one piece, you win! Slow down for a cool down lap to allow your braes and tires to cool, wave at the corner workers as you go by.

8. Five Easy Steps to Avoid a Black Flag
As mentioned, a stationary black flag means that you should pit, the driving coach would like to have a conversation with you. These conversations are generally friendly, but will cost you track time. However, by following these simple steps you can stay on track for your whole session:
Step 1- Keep all fluids and parts within and/or attached to your vehicle at all times
Step 2- Keep all four wheels on the track surface for the duration of your session
Step 3- Keep your front wheels in front of your rear wheels (no end swapping!)
Step 4- Check and empty your mirrors regularly
Step 5- Establish and maintain an appropriate level of situational awareness
A tip- should you discover yourself out of step, do not pass go, come straight to the pits. You will lose less time and have a better conversation if you come to us before we come to you.

9. Zero Tolerance Policies
The following will result in the premature ending of your on track experience:
- Contact with another car
- Consumption of drugs, alcohol, or other impairing substances
- Disrespectful behavior or language
- Three incidents that result in black flags

10. A is for Attitude
No amount of rules, regulations, or meetings can substitute for the right attitude. We want to have fun; we want you to have fun. Let’s be smart, stay within the laws of physics, and the bounds of good sense and we can make sure everyone has a great night.

Norm

 

[Fatguy]

What is tracking?

Do you actually race other cars or do you just drive about for a bit?

Pretty sure he means proper racing but that is for him to answer. Hats off to the guy for being pure to the sport for all these years. I only dipped my toe back in because I bought the Mustang and it was far nimbler than other cars I have driven (read front heavy V8s). I only run informal road courses maybe once in the last month.

I am a nobody with some connections to some serious racing circles - but a nobody nevertheless. Some here are the real deal.

 

[2018OFPP1?2]

And it's a never-ending discussion simply because we don't all define "good dual-purpose vehicle" quite the same way. There's a near-infinite number of points between "street only/not well-suited to track use" and "race car/dedicated track toy".

It's probably harder for people to understand how anybody else could be happy with a street-driven car that's closer to 'race' in its intent or character than they'd want, than the other way around to understand how others would want something less extreme.


Norm

No, what's hard to understand is why 0.00000000000000000001% of the Mustang/Camaro buying public believes Ford or Chevy have missed the mark because they don't sell true race cars cheaply at the corner dealer.

With all due respect to the OP, the title of this thread should have been, "Does Ford provide enough performance for my highly inflated ego".

 

[Fatguy]

Perhaps more properly 'High Performance Driving Experience' or 'HPDE', where you're out on a real race track with other cars and you're driving faster and harder than you would (or ever should) on the street.

You are expected to drive within your comfort zone, not beyond it. This won't be the same for all drivers even if they were in identical cars.




Norm

I call that track racing even if you downplay it. You have rules and officials.

For hacks like me we get the message where an informal track will be set up like last Good Friday around a closed mall (I may have posted on this thread but I don’t remember) with no real rules so I can’t recommend it. I finished my lap and had to get out of the way as a double decker bus barreled onto the track and actually raced it. I know I should frown upon this kind of activity but that was one of the most awesome displays of driving I ever saw! You kids don’t do that!!!!!


But that is how the nobodies keep their street skills up...

 

[Fatguy]

I've driven my camper van around the Nurburgring a few times. Actually got quite a cheer from the crowd on one of the corners. I was a trembling, sweaty wreck after each lap. (You can't take vans on any more).

Here it is in Wales.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I call that track racing even if you downplay it. You have rules and officials.

Well, you do get to drive as close to a race pace as you care to (and in accordance with whatever passing rules are in effect for your run group). It's more like an organized high speed drive in the country with a few friends. Minus things like oncoming traffic, road construction crews, and speed enforcement.




Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

No, what's hard to understand is why 0.00000000000000000001% of the Mustang/Camaro buying public believes Ford or Chevy have missed the mark because they don't sell true race cars cheaply at the corner dealer.

More like 'why couldn't they have come closer, or supplied a car that could?'.

With all due respect to the OP, the title of this thread should have been, "Does Ford provide enough performance for the $".

Fixed.

It's not about ego, only a preference. Anybody who doesn't care about driving at close to a race pace on a real race track probably can't understand it from the point of view of those who would. I can try to explain, but I certainly can't do anybody else's understanding for them.


Norm

 

[Fatguy]

Well, you do get to drive as close to a race pace as you care to (and in accordance with whatever passing rules are in effect for your run group). It's more like an organized high speed drive in the country with a few friends. Minus things like oncoming traffic, road construction crews, and speed enforcement.




Norm

Like I said, I call that track racing.

 

[JohnD]

Like I said, I call that track racing.

It isn't racing at all, it's lapping. There's no comparison between the two, they are completely different. The only common thing is they both take place on a race track. To start with, any track days I've ever run do not time laps, and they do not encourage people to do so. It's not about who's fastest, it's about enjoying your car in a venue it is equipped to deal with.

Toronto Mustang Club is having a track day at Toronto Motorsports Park on May 10th, you should go out and see what goes on. You might see a different side of Mustang culture. I guarantee you that taking part in a well run track day with an instructor will make you a better driver.

 

[2018OFPP1?2]

More like 'why couldn't they have come closer, or supplied a car that could?'.



Fixed.

It's not about ego, only a preference. Anybody who doesn't care about driving at close to a race pace on a real race track probably can't understand it from the point of view of those who would. I can try to explain, but I certainly can't do anybody else's understanding for them.


Norm

It's pretty simple to understand really. It doesn't make economic sense for them to produce cars only two people want. Unfortunately, the lack of understanding doesn't seem to be with the manufacturers or others on this thread who understand that.

Anyway, good luck getting that race car at your local dealer.

 

[Fatguy]

It isn't racing at all, it's lapping. There's no comparison between the two, they are completely different. The only common thing is they both take place on a race track. To start with, any track days I've ever run do not time laps, and they do not encourage people to do so. It's not about who's fastest, it's about enjoying your car in a venue it is equipped to deal with.

Toronto Mustang Club is having a track day at Toronto Motorsports Park on May 10th, you should go out and see what goes on. You might see a different side of Mustang culture. I guarantee you that taking part in a well run track day with an instructor will make you a better driver.

Oh oh... Busted. Ok I may take you up on that. Be warned I may not be who you think I am (I say this nervously wondering if he knows something - I could be in big trouble). Man, look at the time - gotta go! :eyebulge:


And to be fair, Norm did call it “tracking”...

Sponsored