Is Ford lacking on performance?

[Fatguy]

I drove one for the better part of a day. I would personally never DD one. Not because of the ride. I’ve driven harsher suspensions for longer. The 1-speaker audio and optional AC would irritate me long before the suspension bothered me.

The one I drove did not have AC. It didn’t take long for me to realize that if I were to have one, DD or not, it would absolutely have to have AC.

I loved the Z/28 philosophy and wish they carried it into the ZL1 1LE. For sure no a/c, no radio and no single speaker. No seats except for the driver which is a plain fibreglass bucket just like in my old days - maybe a post for a rumble seat if needed for a passenger. Even roll up windows if possible and no cruise control. Remove all the sound deadner on the inside and outside and no carpet or padding. No center console and your arm rest is the fire extinguisher. No cupholders as the holes in the door will do after you remove the trim panels. No interior trim at all. I would not do that to a new car but if the factory offered it as such and tastefully painted the bare metal with some colourful conduit for the wires - then I’d be in heaven! I have seen this done in commercial vehicles. Just a fast car.


My first 5.0 had nothing as in no a/c, no power windows or power locks. No radio or even an antenna as I just had a black plastic plug instead for both.No cruise - no nothing. This car was so popular Ford ran out of engines due to demand and the ad up here in Canada was: 148 mph for 14,999! So not only do I talk the talk, but I walked the walk. In fact my new V6 is the first car with working a/c and I’m pushing 60!

Releasing a car like this would get rid of the riff raff that would not appreciate it in the first place. Suffer for your craft...

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[2018OFPP1?2]

I loved the Z/28 philosophy and wish they carried it into the ZL1 1LE. For sure no a/c, no radio and no single speaker. No seats except for the driver which is a plain fibreglass bucket just like in my old days - maybe a post for a rumble seat if needed for a passenger. Even roll up windows if possible and no cruise control. Remove all the sound deadner on the inside and outside and no carpet or padding. No center console and your arm rest is the fire extinguisher. No cupholders as the holes in the door will do after you remove the trim panels. No interior trim at all. I would not do that to a new car but if the factory offered it as such and tastefully painted the bare metal with some colourful conduit for the wires - then I’d be in heaven! I have seen this done in commercial vehicles. Just a fast car.


My first 5.0 had nothing as in no a/c, no power windows or power locks. No radio or even an antenna as I just had a black plastic plug instead for both.No cruise - no nothing. This car was so popular Ford ran out of engines due to demand and the ad up here in Canada was: 148 mph for 14,999! So not only do I talk the talk, but I walked the walk. In fact my new V6 is the first car with working a/c and I’m pushing 60!

Releasing a car like this would get rid of the riff raff that would not appreciate it in the first place. Suffer for your craft...

You suffer if you please. I'll take a 401a PP2, add a Whipple, give a zl1 a run for it's money, pocket $5k, and be comfortable. All. Day. Long.

 

[jake_zx2]

I loved the Z/28 philosophy and wish they carried it into the ZL1 1LE. For sure no a/c, no radio and no single speaker. No seats except for the driver which is a plain fibreglass bucket just like in my old days - maybe a post for a rumble seat if needed for a passenger. Even roll up windows if possible and no cruise control. Remove all the sound deadner on the inside and outside and no carpet or padding. No center console and your arm rest is the fire extinguisher. No cupholders as the holes in the door will do after you remove the trim panels. No interior trim at all. I would not do that to a new car but if the factory offered it as such and tastefully painted the bare metal with some colourful conduit for the wires - then I’d be in heaven! I have seen this done in commercial vehicles. Just a fast car.

Idea: Buy a Lotus
Second idea: buy a stripped foxbody

Bad idea: looking for these "options" to come standard in a Grand Tourer

 

[jake_zx2]

You suffer if you please. I'll take a 401a PP2, add a Whipple, give a zl1 a run for it's money, pocket $5k, and be comfortable. All. Day. Long.

True, you could even do the LPF kit on a PP2 to have a 700hp ZL1 killer and still have your factory warranty

 

[2018OFPP1?2]

Idea: Buy a Lotus
Second idea: buy a stripped foxbody

Bad idea: looking for these "options" to come standard in a Grand Tourer

Seriously. You could get a fox, strip it to the chassis, give it a Maximum Motorsports makeover, drop a FRPP crate engine in it, run circles around a zl1 or a pp2, save a ton of cash, and have no creature comforts whatsoever if that's you desire. Don't need a new car for that :shrug:

 

[Fatguy]

Seriously. You could get a fox, strip it to the chassis, give it a Maximum Motorsports makeover, drop a FRPP crate engine in it, run circles around a zl1 or a pp2, save a ton of cash, and have no creature comforts whatsoever if that's you desire. Don't need a new car for that :shrug:

The idea was that the ZL1 1LE was based on a design philosophy of performance above all else. They took it to an extreme degree but I would have gone further.

Ford doesn’t seem to go this far and probably knows it’s customers better. The difference shows up in the track times though. I find it funny with all the hand wringing about the Mustang coming in behind the Camaro on the track yet they want all the creature comforts that add weight and a comfy ride that compromises performance at the limit.

So some guy winces and cries out in pain driving the ZL1 1LE on a rough road. It is almost the same as this guy driving a V6 Mustang seriously set up for autox and apologizing for the shaking and noise. But he wants to win on the track and that car isn’t a DD either. If you want to win you have to make some design choices and they won’t be comfort motivated.

Want to be a professional race car driver, then start out racing go carts. No creature comforts there. The drag strip? When I was into it a top fuel dragster’s interior was similar to living in a box. :lol:

So what if the dampers are not as integrated as the Ford GT’s. You are not paying the extra 200,000 and can find the car for sale in the dealer parking lot. You get the performance and that is all that matters. If you are not that extreme then buy the other Ford product. But that will still come in second place at the limit.

Personally I think the Ford/GM rivalry is silly. But I do love the idea of actually owning a real race car you can drive on the street. But let it be what it is. No wolf in sheep’s clothing.

 

[bootlegger]

Personally, I have always found the concept of dedicated race cars that you can drive on the street to be a bit silly. Trailers are cheap. I either have a comfortable daily driveable car that can handle well on the track, or I have a dedicated track car.

 

[jake_zx2]

The idea was that the ZL1 1LE was based on a design philosophy of performance above all else. They took it to an extreme degree but I would have gone further.

You would have. Not many other people would have. Thus, "buy a lotus or an older stripped car". buying a new grand tourer just to strip it is ridiculous.

Ford doesn’t seem to go this far and probably knows it’s customers better. The difference shows up in the track times though. I find it funny with all the hand wringing about the Mustang coming in behind the Camaro on the track yet they want all the creature comforts that add weight and a comfy ride that compromises performance at the limit.

It shows in track times? Oh, you mean like the .3 second deficit despite the 150hp deficit? There aren't many people who are "hand wringing" the mustang's performance, our performance offerings are just fine.

So some guy winces and cries out in pain driving the ZL1 1LE on a rough road. It is almost the same as this guy driving a V6 Mustang seriously set up for autox and apologizing for the shaking and noise. But he wants to win on the track and that car isn’t a DD either. If you want to win you have to make some design choices and they won’t be comfort motivated. Want to be a professional race car driver, then start out racing go carts. No creature comforts there. The drag strip? When I was into it a top fuel dragster’s interior was similar to living in a box.

Sure, but most people are not in this situation, because most people are smart enough to know that if they want a "dedicated" track car, then anything that keeps it street legal is unneeded. Like Bootlegger said, trailers aren't THAT expensive, especially when we're sitting here discussing $75k cars. Yes, you can start at go karts. That prepares you well for Formula 1. Guess where a Formula 1 car can't be legally driven

So what if the dampers are not as integrated as the Ford GT’s. You are not paying the extra 200,000 and can find the car for sale in the dealer parking lot. You get the performance and that is all that matters. If you are not that extreme then buy the other Ford product. But that will still come in second place at the limit.

"Second place" in lap times, First place in what people ACTUALLY want to buy these cars for, which is a good dual-purpose vehicle

Personally I think the Ford/GM rivalry is silly. But I do love the idea of actually owning a real race car you can drive on the street. But let it be what it is. No wolf in sheep’s clothing.

Then own a real race car. Buy one, take out all the seats and replace it with one aluminum shell, remove the carpets, the dash, the sound system, the headlights/taillights... ANYTHING that isn't necessary. No one is stopping you. Point is, no one else wants that for a street car, and that's why it's not sensible for them to make it. If you want that, both companies offer an excellent GT3 car

 

[millhouse]

Seriously. You could get a fox, strip it to the chassis, give it a Maximum Motorsports makeover, drop a FRPP crate engine in it, run circles around a zl1 or a pp2, save a ton of cash, and have no creature comforts whatsoever if that's you desire. Don't need a new car for that :shrug:

Spot on. Boy how I DON'T miss my fox with tubular K member, spherical bushings and coil overs. Why anyone would want to strip out all of the creature comforts and likely pay bore for it is beyond me.

Personally, I have always found the concept of dedicated race cars that you can drive on the street to be a bit silly. Trailers are cheap. I either have a comfortable daily driveable car that can handle well on the track, or I have a dedicated track car.

Yup. The ZL1 1LE amounts to a dedicated track car with creature comforts. It's not a daily driver. It's purpose plain and simple was to set nurburgring lap times and to give material for fanboys jerk off to....purely for publicity. The standard ZL1 is all the public wanted.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I drove one for the better part of a day. I would personally never DD one. Not because of the ride. I’ve driven harsher suspensions for longer. The 1-speaker audio and optional AC would irritate me long before the suspension bothered me.

The one I drove did not have AC. It didn’t take long for me to realize that if I were to have one, DD or not, it would absolutely have to have AC.

I'd have to opt for the A/C as well (medical reasons involving heat stress), which IIRC also got you a slightly better audio which would be good enough for me. My ears were never as fussy as yours (these days they don't work quite as well as they used to either), and the music genes along my family line skipped over me and went to my younger sister and brother.

My reference point for a truly bad ride is Tokico Illumina shocks over short sharp bumps. That's with most any reasonably-available big-spring rate, OE-soft or twice that, it just doesn't matter. One trip over a railroad grade crossing is all you need to understand, and what you get is not the same softish heave motion that these ZL1 1LE videos are depicting. It's a much higher-frequency slam-bang jolt.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

Personally, I have always found the concept of dedicated race cars that you can drive on the street to be a bit silly. Trailers are cheap. I either have a comfortable daily driveable car that can handle well on the track, or I have a dedicated track car.

There's an infinite number of dual-purpose points in between street-only and dedicated track/flat-out not street-legal. Your point on that spectrum is simply closer to street-only than mine or Fat's.

Maybe trailers are cheap. But you still have to find a place to park it. And then there's the matter of owning/registering/insuring/parking a tow vehicle, which means a truck or SUV (that I wouldn't want to drive in the first place and probably wouldn't use for any other purpose).

Nah, I really would rather drive my track toy on the street.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

"Second place" in lap times, First place in what people ACTUALLY want to buy these cars for, which is a good dual-purpose vehicle.

And it's a never-ending discussion simply because we don't all define "good dual-purpose vehicle" quite the same way. There's a near-infinite number of points between "street only/not well-suited to track use" and "race car/dedicated track toy".

It's probably harder for people to understand how anybody else could be happy with a street-driven car that's closer to 'race' in its intent or character than they'd want, than the other way around to understand how others would want something less extreme.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

The idea was that the ZL1 1LE was based on a design philosophy of performance above all else. They took it to an extreme degree but I would have gone further.

<snip>

Personally I think the Ford/GM rivalry is silly. But I do love the idea of actually owning a real race car you can drive on the street. But let it be what it is. No wolf in sheep’s clothing.

I did a little digging, and I think maybe you have to be an enthusiast of at least a certain age to fully appreciate driving a race car (or near-race car) on the street. Most forty-somethings - my kids' fall into that age group - aren't as likely to "get it", especially if there wasn't a solid foundation in car enthusiasm for them to observe along the way.

Personally, I prefer a 'sleeper' appearance where the hardcore track mods are hidden. Or subtle if they can't hide.

The 18x11's went on last night and the brakes were bled until clear. Got a TNiA event coming up . . .


Norm

 

[Grintch]

I actually drove one, and it didn't seem all that bad at all. Only drove it a little, and rode in it some more, but that was more than enough for me to absolutely know I could DD it.


Norm

The comments/reviews I have seen suggested that the ZL1 1LE and Z28 had a similar ride and handling balance.

I have seen a number of complaints about the ride of the GT350 and GT350 R as well. Some people don't understand that if you want a car to handle like a race car, it's going to ride like a race car.

And why has our performance discussion turned into a discussion of which car has a mother-in-law approved ride?

 

[Fatguy]

I did a little digging, and I think maybe you have to be an enthusiast of at least a certain age to fully appreciate driving a race car (or near-race car) on the street. Most forty-somethings - my kids' fall into that age group - aren't as likely to "get it", especially if there wasn't a solid foundation in car enthusiasm for them to observe along the way.

Personally, I prefer a 'sleeper' appearance where the hardcore track mods are hidden. Or subtle if they can't hide.

The 18x11's went on last night and the brakes were bled until clear. Got a TNiA event coming up . . .


Norm

You hit the nail on the head. Different eras. The top end of cars were also attainable. You could hit top speed back then for example - and thus you wanted to get more. There was more street racing and so you wanted even more performance as egos were involved and I used to know how much faster I was for every 10 pounds saved.

For you kids (thirty years and younger) when I got my fox bodied 5.0 it was faster than the still available out going Corvette (except for top speed). GM upped the performance quick but I remember seeing the 1987 5.0 for the first time and my heart actually started racing. That cheap, stripped but fast car gave every kid all the performance they needed. And we wanted more. If you were a young man back then that was the car to have. People are starting to rewrite history but aside from being faster than the Vette I believe it was certainly faster than the Ferrari Mondial and the Ferrari 308. The 328 I’m not sure but I am a dangerous person to challenge because I think I still have all those old Car and Driver and Road and Track magazines in my basement with the stats. Every car enthusiast lived in fear of you. The Mustang ruled in those days.


Bottom line is that performance has passed the true limits of most here and thus it is just a number. If their ability surpassed the performance of their cars they would would go all out like I would and toss all the extraneous stuff out of the car for that extra minutia of speed. BTW: I was one of the first to use earbuds with a Sony Sports Walkman. Everyone that saw me laughed and thought it was funny as all hell. Now the huge stereo phones are in - go figure. Anyway I used that instead of the missing radio in the car...

So different eras and priorities I guess. They will never understand me. So let them have their 1,500 dollar heated and cooled seats...

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