Installed BMR camber bolts

[Norm Peterson]

Eric - I think we agree on the matter of toe, if for slightly different reasons. I recognize that toe-out is not an inherently stable condition, taken in isolation.

My experience has been that there's more than enough understeer dialed into most production cars such that not every single contributor to the understeer-oversteer balance must be calibrated on the understeer side, and that's where we differ on the matter of camber.

I've never had a car become oversteerish because of more aggressive front vs rear camber settings - sometimes significantly so, as in whole degrees (plural intentional) past the negative end of the factory range. On the other hand, with either of a couple other individual "tuning" changes (that I won't go into here so I won't have to warn folks to "don't do this at home" . . .) I've turned cars normally having at least moderate understeer into cars that were uncomfortably, maybe even scary "loose" in only moderate street driving.


Norm

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[robwlf]

my specs are like yours . i have 1.8 camber on the rear and i think my front is set like yours also .. i did the track spec as well when i had my alignment done .i dont have any issues what so ever, handles fine, steering wheel is arrow straight not twitchy ..i have to look at my sheet but i did do the track spec .. im also lowered on cj springs

 

[Bluemustang]

Now that I've gotten more used to the car with the new alignment, I am a little surprised. I thought it might improve handing as I had hoped, and it definitely does. It feels on rails now in corners. I can actually feel the increased angle on the rear tires on corner exits. With the mods I have and this IRS - it feels sorted. I can feel the tires hugging the road, almost like they are "reaching out" for that extra piece of asphalt. On tighter corners with throttle, it feels almost like a slingshot or a rubber band, pulling my back tires through and around the corner.

The only issue is the slightly darty steering. If it's true that I just need to add a little toe-in, I'll be golden. I just need that more stable steering feel. I'm still running the oem all seasons 18"s and it still handles like a champ. I don't think I can safely test the limits on the street. But the confidence on hitting that throttle in the corner and knowing the car is gonna stay flat and composed. I may have a touch of oversteer but it's hard to know for sure because I can't really push it to its limit on the suspension / tires.

 

[Bluemustang]

I've been reading articles on alignment and everything seems to point to excessive negative camber as the cause for darty steering. This seems to contradict the advice given in this thread. It seems that the toe alignment may not be the reason.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[JmalB]

I think when they mention excessive negative camber, they mean something like the stance crowd

Incoming extreme example:

You are far from excessive negative camber.

 

[Gatorac]

I have -2.5 degrees camber up front. I also have about 1/8" toe in. It's not "darty" on the street. It's perfection. -1.6 is not excessive.

Get some toe in the car and see how it feels.

 

[EricSMG]

Eric - I think we agree on the matter of toe, if for slightly different reasons. I recognize that toe-out is not an inherently stable condition, taken in isolation.

My experience has been that there's more than enough understeer dialed into most production cars such that not every single contributor to the understeer-oversteer balance must be calibrated on the understeer side, and that's where we differ on the matter of camber.

I've never had a car become oversteerish because of more aggressive front vs rear camber settings - sometimes significantly so, as in whole degrees (plural intentional) past the negative end of the factory range. On the other hand, with either of a couple other individual "tuning" changes (that I won't go into here so I won't have to warn folks to "don't do this at home" . . .) I've turned cars normally having at least moderate understeer into cars that were uncomfortably, maybe even scary "loose" in only moderate street driving.


Norm

I think we mostly agree. It's not camber per se, but the cumulative affect of a few tweaks, as you say, that can turn a car into a handful. It's just that tons of front camber seems to be the first mod down that slippery slope when in reality, it's just totally unnecessary assuming the overall setup grips and steers well.

Most high performance production road cars (I'd bet all save for special track models) run more rear camber than front and they go around a corner like stink. It's just my personal opinion that more than about -1.5 front is simply unnecessary for street work assuming a top tier, adequately wide enough tire. It's over hyped, if you will. My M3 with 225 front tires and -1.5 front camber will drain blood from your ears on a canyon run

My suspension and wheel/tire philosophy is highly conservative and balance-focused. When too much emphasis is placed on mechanical grip you tend to disrupt the graceful balance of a good handling road car. While it might be faster it becomes harder to drive fast and recover from mishaps. In essence, it becomes less fun.

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