Gt500 vs Gt350

[ThreeFiveO]

Great story Floyd! Live life and enjoy. My motto is "you only go around once"

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[svttim]

[MENTION=6571]Bossing[/MENTION], I certainly didn't mean to offend. Just my opinion. FWIW, I didn't say the Shelby versions of those cars were bad, but I will stand by my comment that the Omnis out of the Dodge showroom were woeful. I've spent too much time in them. We've all had our share of bad/awful cars.


Thank you for your reply. I got both a smile and a guffaw and out of it (I mean that sincerely, not in a mocking/snide way).

I saw "fraud" because the idea that a 60s car being built 30 years later being considered anything but a replicar (even if by the original maker) doesn't jive. Also, because of how poorly Shelby American handled the Series 1 debacle.

Thanks for your comments on the GT40. I know the man had some involvement, but I just can't remember what. I seem to be under the impression that the design and engineering were both led by Ford's UK division, though.

Could you please tell me what Carroll's actual involvement with the S550 GT350 was then, apart from Hameedi saying Carrol was involved (because that always read to me like a bit of fan service)?

From what I know, Carroll was aware of the engine. The chasis was not developed yet. Carroll was the one who approved the name being leased to Ford. Thats not as much input as he had with the other Shelby cars but, he knew the car was in good hands.

As someone else stated, read Go Like Hell. Great read and you learn a lot

 

[oldmachguy]

Shelby America is no more than a tuner company on the surface.

It has been that way since the beginning. Other than a few concept cars that never made it into production, of course.

Not sure what your point is as Shelby American has always only been a tuner company even when Carroll and his team where personally involved with the '65, '66 and '67 GT350's and GT500's.

Back in December 1964 when Shelby American took a Ford Mustang 271 HP "K" code 2+2 Fastback and turned it into the first Shelby GT350's in early 1965 it was no more than a tuner car.

Shelby American has been a tuner company from day one and no different than what Jack Roush, Steve Saleen, Kenny Brown or Steeda Racing has done over many years but with obviously much more success.

Gonna have to strongly disagree with UOP Shadow and PP0001, that Shelby American was a "tuner" company in the beginning, especially regarding the comparo to Roush, Saleen, Steeda.

Shelby built the '65 GT350 with factory Ford backing, and designed it to meet SCCA B-Production specs. At the time, SCCA rules said the race car's engine OR suspension could be modified from those on the street car, but not both. Shelby modded the engines on the race cars, so the suspension, steering, and brakes on the street cars were identical to those on the the race cars - which Shelby campaigned to '65 and '66 SCCA B-Production national championships. (When you drive a '65 GT350, you are driving an SCCA national champion that's a little heavier, and a little down on power.)

That was right out of the box, and while Shelby was, with Ford factory money, developing and campaigning the 260, 289, and 427 Cobras, designing, building, and campaigning the Daytona Coupes, and developing and campaigning the GT40s - and winning the FIA World Championship.

That is in no way a "tuner" shop. That's a race car builder. And neither Saleen, Roush, or Steeda have anywhere near that legacy of purebred racing and original VIN production that, 50 years later, stirs such emotion and nostalgia.

But that all changed starting in 1968. Since then, I do not disagree with your characterization of what Shelby American became.

BTW, UOP Shadow: I do love those Shadow cars, especially the DN4's. Not too many drivers with cajones big enough to push those at 10/10ths.

 

[svttim]

Oldmachguy, well said sir


Might add that everyone are tuners now. The Govenment has made it impossible to be anything but

 

[geeded]

w

Was it a '65 (no plexiglas 3/4 windows, just the Mustang louvers, and no rear brake cooling scoops), or a '66?

Do you remember exactly when this was - ie, what months of what year? (Had to be at least late summer / early fall of 1965 at the earliest.)

And what part of Georgia?

(Yes, this might get weird.)

Howdy,

I will tell you what I remember. I spent a lot of time studying the Shelby's over the years so I know a little.

It was definitely a '65. No rear quarter windows, exhaust exiting in front of the rear wheels, don't remember if it had rear brake scoops or not. I only remember the exhaust because of the noise. This was in the Clarkston/Tucker area of Dekalb county near Memorial Drive. At the time, this was a semi-rural Atlanta bedroom community/small town area around the time I-285 was built so a guess would be late '65/early '66 but I could be off. We did use 285 as a drag strip while it was being built but that was a little later (not sure, after all, it was 50 years ago!).

Memory is a fickle mistress. I can remember vividly the white/blue GT350 & the red (no stripes) 427 Cobra but do not remember the color of the GT40... do remember the interior though. Go figure.

A car that is little remembered now, also features prominently in "memory-ville". One of my friends (name lost to time) had a pale yellow 1966 Chevy II SS with the 327/350hp engine, modded w/a 30-30 Duntov solid lifter cam, Holly carb, jacked up for weight transfer, traction bars, and bigger tires on American Torque Thrust mags. I can still hear that engine in my head....nearly undriveable but very, very fast. Told you that GM was very popular.... I'll leave it there and not get into the '57 2-dr Hardtop Chevy, turquoise/white, tuck/rolled interior, 327 Corvette engine/4-speed, owner's name was Otis, or the '67 GTO w/high lift roller cam & and 3-barrel carb (Holly I believe, 2 big primary & one huge secondary w/2 jets) on high rise manifold....all modded of course & none of them mine but I helped modify them. Couldn't leave anything alone back then....but it always comes back to that '65 Shelby GT350, made of pure unobtanium.

Cheers

 

[oldmachguy]

Thanks, geeded

I will try to do a little research on a '65 sold in GA that I know of. May be nothin, but I don't think there were too many sold in that area in that time frame. I will get back to you if it looks like it may be that car.

 

[PP0001]

Gonna have to strongly disagree with UOP Shadow and PP0001, that Shelby American was a "tuner" company in the beginning, especially regarding the comparo to Roush, Saleen, Steeda.

Shelby built the '65 GT350 with factory Ford backing, and designed it to meet SCCA B-Production specs. At the time, SCCA rules said the race car's engine OR suspension could be modified from those on the street car, but not both. Shelby modded the engines on the race cars, so the suspension, steering, and brakes on the street cars were identical to those on the the race cars - which Shelby campaigned to '65 and '66 SCCA B-Production national championships. (When you drive a '65 GT350, you are driving an SCCA national champion that's a little heavier, and a little down on power.)

That was right out of the box, and while Shelby was, with Ford factory money, developing and campaigning the 260, 289, and 427 Cobras, designing, building, and campaigning the Daytona Coupes, and developing and campaigning the GT40s - and winning the FIA World Championship.

That is in no way a "tuner" shop. That's a race car builder. And neither Saleen, Roush, or Steeda have anywhere near that legacy of purebred racing and original VIN production that, 50 years later, stirs such emotion and nostalgia.

But that all changed starting in 1968. Since then, I do not disagree with your characterization of what Shelby American became.

BTW, UOP Shadow: I do love those Shadow cars, especially the DN4's. Not too many drivers with cajones big enough to push those at 10/10ths.

Certainly you and I are both Mustang and Shelby enthusiasts and I don't disagree with many of your comments and certainly respect most of what you are saying.

Having said that I would like to follow up with a few more comments.

When comparing Shelby American as a "tuner" company with the likes of Roush, Saleen, Brown and Steeda obviously my statement was meant in the spirit of todays tuner cars and if you feel that Shelby American of Las Vegas is not a "tuner" company then we are not even close to being on the same page.

With respect to the 3 year production run that Carroll and his team controlled and assembled in Venice and then adjacent to the Los Angeles airport I still suggest that the 516 "Street" GT350 models were no more than tuner cars but do agree with you that the 37 "Competition" models that were prepared for SCCA racing during the 1965 year were certainly not "tuner" cars but actual race cars with Ford backing this effort just as the 9 GT350 "Drag Racing" models were factory backed by Ford as well.

It is important to note that is was the 100 early built GT350 "Street" versions that allowed these new Shelby GT350's to be homologated by the SCCA for competition but it was the GT350R models that won all of the races and made all of the headlines. I am not aware of any "Street" versions that had a successful race history during this time period.

It is also a known fact that pretty much all of the 37 "Competition" models mostly all went to independent race teams with none if any of these "R" models being available to the general public.

Based on me growing up with these great cars it is still my opinion that the 516 "Street" GT350's were tuner cars but certainly agree that the 37 "Competition" models set up for SCCA racing along with the 9 "Drag Racing" models certainly did not fall under the "tuner" category.

Besides these 1965 GT350 full race versions I also still consider the 1966 GT350's/GT350H's and the 1967 GT350's and GT500's as tuner cars and of course that is just my opinion and certainly respect all of your comments with respect to this issue.

As you can tell I am a strong enthusiast of the Shelby brand for the 6 year run from 1965 to 1970 and also for any Shelby Mustang that has and is still being built in Flat Rock, Michigan.

 

[oldmachguy]

ThAnks, PP0001

Since, as I said, I don't disagree with your characterization of what Shelby American became after 1967 (ie, once production moved to a MI contractor for the 1968 production), you and I are indeed on the same page there.

But I'm going to stick with my argument that, even as to the early street cars, Shelby American was not a "tuner" shop. Before I go on, however, this may be nothing more than how you and I are using the word "tuner."

First and foremost, and before even articulating a definition, I perceive your use of "tuner" to be negative and demeaning -- which I'm saying only to be descriptive, not critical of your use of the word. That is, you seem to use the word to equate Shelby American's early years with the aftermarket business models of Roush, Steeda, etc., of the last 20-30 years -- to imply that, even for the early street cars, Shelby American was just "tuning" Fords to sell hot rods, or hot rod parts, not to sell them to help fund his racing, or as a byproduct of a real racing effort.

If that is close to what you mean, the we do sharply disagree.

Shelby did not have to drill the shock towers and relocate the front control arm mounts, or cut the rear floor pans and install bespoke override traction bars, etc. on all 525 (562-37) street cars (just the first 100 (?) for homologation), but he did. The same goes for the 427 Competition cars vs. the 427 S/C cars, vs. the 427 street cars, etc. The difference between what Shelby did then, versus, what Steeda, Roush, et al., have done is this: Shelby American was a race car shop that also sold its cars to customers. Carroll Shelby was only a few years from being forced out of the cockpit with a bad heart, so he was still very much a racer, not a tuner. (Ask Bernie Kretschmar, who helped build the '65 GT350 R's, and went to the track with them - he has come to the Mid-America meet several times, and I believe is still with us.) These guys did what they did from '63 - '67 to go racing (SCCA, NHRA, FIA), not to sell mods for street cars with a sugar coating of "we've proven these parts at the track" -- though that came many years later. (BTW, Ferrari did the same. He started building road cars solely to fund his F1 team - which is why he was going to sell to Ford, so Ford could build the road cars and he could keep racing.)

My point is that what Shelby American did in those early years, and, more importantly, why he did it, was fundamentally different from what Jak Roush, Steve Saleen, Reeves Callaway, Steeda, etc. have all done since.

But, this is 'Murica, so we may still disagree. ;)

 

[ThreeFiveO]

This was in the Clarkston/Tucker area of Dekalb county near Memorial Drive.

Funny I grew up at chamblee dunwoody and 285 in the 60's.
Have lived within 25 miles of there my entire life. Small world

 

[PP0001]

Since, as I said, I don't disagree with your characterization of what Shelby American became after 1967 (ie, once production moved to a MI contractor for the 1968 production), you and I are indeed on the same page there.

But I'm going to stick with my argument that, even as to the early street cars, Shelby American was not a "tuner" shop. Before I go on, however, this may be nothing more than how you and I are using the word "tuner."

First and foremost, and before even articulating a definition, I perceive your use of "tuner" to be negative and demeaning -- which I'm saying only to be descriptive, not critical of your use of the word. That is, you seem to use the word to equate Shelby American's early years with the aftermarket business models of Roush, Steeda, etc., of the last 20-30 years -- to imply that, even for the early street cars, Shelby American was just "tuning" Fords to sell hot rods, or hot rod parts, not to sell them to help fund his racing, or as a byproduct of a real racing effort.

If that is close to what you mean, the we do sharply disagree.

Shelby did not have to drill the shock towers and relocate the front control arm mounts, or cut the rear floor pans and install bespoke override traction bars, etc. on all 525 (562-37) street cars (just the first 100 (?) for homologation), but he did. The same goes for the 427 Competition cars vs. the 427 S/C cars, vs. the 427 street cars, etc. The difference between what Shelby did then, versus, what Steeda, Roush, et al., have done is this: Shelby American was a race car shop that also sold its cars to customers. Carroll Shelby was only a few years from being forced out of the cockpit with a bad heart, so he was still very much a racer, not a tuner. (Ask Bernie Kretschmar, who helped build the '65 GT350 R's, and went to the track with them - he has come to the Mid-America meet several times, and I believe is still with us.) These guys did what they did from '63 - '67 to go racing (SCCA, NHRA, FIA), not to sell mods for street cars with a sugar coating of "we've proven these parts at the track" -- though that came many years later. (BTW, Ferrari did the same. He started building road cars solely to fund his F1 team - which is why he was going to sell to Ford, so Ford could build the road cars and he could keep racing.)

My point is that what Shelby American did in those early years, and, more importantly, why he did it, was fundamentally different from what Jak Roush, Steve Saleen, Reeves Callaway, Steeda, etc. have all done since.

But, this is 'Murica, so we may still disagree. ;)

You have brought up a great point with respect to the use of "tuner" and what it means to different individuals.

While using this term I suggest that some of the Shelby cars were more of a tuner variety with many well beyond that level as you described in your previous post.

I would like to be very clear that my intent was never to be demeaning or negative with respect to Carroll and any of us team regarding the use of "tuner"and in fact exactly quite the opposite and think about him pretty much every day and especially on May 10th, 2012.

We all have a few regrets in life and things we wished we could have experienced and one of mine was to have spent time with Carroll and his team of characters such as Pete Brock, Klaus Arning, Chuck Cantwell, Ken Miles, Jerry Schwartz and Jerry Titus just to name a few.

The other regret I had was not purchasing a couple of '65 GT350's that were offered to me by a good friend back in the early 1990's with one car being ~#39 and the other a late production model. Both outstanding vehicles and could have had them for $60,000 each.

The '65 Shelby GT350/GT350R's are still my favorite vehicle after being in the car hobby for almost 50 years.

I suggest that we are both on the same page and can sincerely tell you that no one has any more respect for the original Shelby American Team/Ford Motor Company and their cars than me and I feel so fortunate to be able to experience some of these new GT350/GT350R's!

:ford:

 

[svttim]

We tried to get Shelby American to go racing again. we even offered to do the car for free but there was no interest. I was told, and take it for what its worth, that Carroll had won everything he set out to and, that he lost too many friends in the sport. I never spoke to Carroll about it but, that is what I was told.

 

[oldmachguy]

The '65 Shelby GT350/GT350R's are still my favorite vehicle after being in the car hobby for almost 50 years.

I suggest that we are both on the same page and can sincerely tell you that no one has any more respect for the original Shelby American Team/Ford Motor Company and their cars than me and I feel so fortunate to be able to experience some of these new GT350/GT350R's!

Right there with you.

 

[geeded]

This was in the Clarkston/Tucker area of Dekalb county near Memorial Drive.

Funny I grew up at chamblee dunwoody and 285 in the 60's.
Have lived within 25 miles of there my entire life. Small world

Yep, small world. After getting out of the Navy in '72, I went to Dekalb Community College for two years. After that, I took a job in Virginia Beach and didn't go back for a long, long time. Didn't recognize the place when I did. Literally could not find my way around and the traffic....unbelievable!

Now retired and living in the mountains of Western NC and love it. Summers in the mid-80's, winters in the 30's, and rest of the year 70's. It's great and carving the roads with the Shelby. Looking forward to a few more years of this.... I'd take more than a few years but time marches on. Such is life.....

cheers!

 

[geeded]

I will try to do a little research on a '65 sold in GA that I know of. May be nothin, but I don't think there were too many sold in that area in that time frame. I will get back to you if it looks like it may be that car.

Thanks! I'd love to know it's still on the road. Strange what sticks with you for a lifetime isn't it?

Cheers

 

[Stuntman]

Out of all of those "tuners" I think only Roush offers pre-title built cars registered as "Roush" and not "Ford".

Also Saleem & Roush had or have professional racing teams.

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