GT350R on coil-overs

[Kenwood1113]

Hey Ken,
Are you doing the Watson roll bar install yourself? I'm in the process of installing some parts as we speak (tow hooks f/r), wheels, brakes, etc.
Looking at a roll bar and harness, but thinking of going Cooltech.
(I'm local in Raleigh - I think I've seen you around at C&C).

No sir, I'm going to have it installed. Do you know the weight of the Cooltech? From what I've found, roll bar weight can vary by 60 lbs or so. Also, what type of mods are you doing to your brakes? I'm considering carbon ceramics for the front to save 33 lbs but $6K for rotors on one axle is kinda steep.

And yes, we've definitely seen one another at C&C. Hope to you out soon, when things warm up!

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[Kenwood1113]

I think what a few people were trying to say was that unless you're already a pro at driving AND car setup - you'd likely be wasting money due to your inability to take advantage of even the stock setup and the likelihood that the modifications would actually set the car backwards a bit. The fact that you didn't find a plethora of R owners who have dumped the OE suspension should tell you something. Forgive me...and with all due respect...it sounds like you want to "play" pro and you have the money to burn, so to that end, do what makes you happy.

So many times people come in here with questions but seem to already have their minds made up - makes for a rough conversation.

No sir, that's not me, my mind is not made up. That was the reason I looked to folks who have experience and are more knowledgeable. I do not aspire to be a professional racer or a pro. We just love fast cars, VIR is an outstanding track just over 1 hour from home and our entire family enjoys taking our cars there. Bottom line, I have never built a dedicated track car and to be honest, I want help selecting the mods that will enhance our experience.

Thank you again for the help.

 

[Kenwood1113]

Ken - an R is just another S550 if you are going to gut the suspension.

If you are going 11/10ths and find it unsatisfactory for a reason, I’d consider doing something. Otherwise, don’t screw with an R. You’re only going downhill unless you know what you’re doing. After over 10 years of racing (life after HPDE), I still have little idea of what makes one dampener faster than another. Lots of things to do consider. But for HPDE, just go have fun with your car and learn to drive it to whatever limit you have.

Agreed. Have you modified any suspension components on your R? At the very least I'm going to install "moderate" suspension mods (Vorshlag camber plates, sway bar, etc), roll bar, harnesses, seats, a set of track tires on the carbon fiber wheels and brake pads for the track.

Again, I'm not doing this to be a wanna be professional racer, this is just one of my hobbies. Something that I enjoy almost as much as time on the track is working on the car and learning more about what works and what doesn't.

Thanks!

 

[Kenwood1113]

You looking to adopt another son ?

We have 4 children, 3 boys......got my hands full! But I am glad they're all into cars. It's something that we can all enjoy together.

 

[Eritas]

How many track events have you done in your R? Why not try the R7s on the stock suspension first? They aren't more than a second or two faster than the PSC2s. You don't really need to 'upgrade' the pads on a 350.

The RS isn't the best hpde car and tends to overheat, so it's probably not the best choice for track work.

Do you want to adopt? :lol:


Edit - just saw Memphis' post. Haha

 

[CSL]

OP, one thing we haven’t discussed is a bushing upgrade in the rear. The rear in this car can be twitchy, especially when pushing it hard with grippy tires in high speed corners; particularly when you are squeezing hard on the throttle tracking out. The bushing upgrade remedies this and really inspires confidence. You don’t need to upgrade everything either. Focus on the IRS cradle bushings, and both the upper and lower control arm bushings. This mod stiffens up the rear nicely. Since you have an R, I would probably leave the springs and sway bars alone.

If you’re inclined you may also want grab a DSC tuner to get the most out the stock dampers. Although I don’t think coilovers will be a notable upgrade over tuned stock dampers, I know that 949 racing is testing a coilover setup for this car. They run competitive events in their car too. I think they could provide you the best intel on your initial question.

 

[stanglife]

I don’t think a stock R will ruin your day, at all . On the right track with the alignment and safety mods, obviously.

 

[snaproll]

Agreed. Have you modified any suspension components on your R? At the very least I'm going to install "moderate" suspension mods (Vorshlag camber plates, sway bar, etc), roll bar, harnesses, seats, a set of track tires on the carbon fiber wheels and brake pads for the track.

Again, I'm not doing this to be a wanna be professional racer, this is just one of my hobbies. Something that I enjoy almost as much as time on the track is working on the car and learning more about what works and what doesn't.

Thanks!

Ken - I put a few laps on my R at Sebring this fall. Frankly, I was so amazed at the level of grip and behavior of the car that it literally made me giggle. That’s saying something from a guy who has put 10 years of racing laps in Mustangs at Sebring. And the brakes and engine are equally amazing.

I’m emphasizing Sebring because it is a challenging track that favors a compliant setup. However, the same compliant setup that works at Sebring works at many other tracks wher you hit curbs, etc. It didn’t take more than a couple corners to realize that the car needs a seat and harness before you can even enjoy/approach its limits 100% stock. So, imho, springs and bars are a waste until you have control of the car in its stock form. The limits are high.

The first mods should be seat, roll bar, harness and then, when you’re quicker than the American Iron lap record for your track(not a high bar given this car’s capability), consider throwing some parts at it to see what happens.

Until then, enjoy what you paid for. It’s a sweet setup that you can still drive on the street. :ford:

 

[FogcitySF]

While not related directly to coilovers, in addressing some of the earlier points and videos posted from the DSC website elsewhere in the thread, I've done a bunch of research including on TMO, and I think the jury is really still out on the DSC Magneride controller. Absent any independent tests (not done by the manufacturer), I'm skeptical of the magnitude of claimed lap time gains (~1.5 secs on a short track where car runs 1:25 ish). So far I haven't found any quantifiable feedback other than subjective opinions and on that aspect there seems to be a few that are dissatisfied with the pre-loaded DSC calibrations for the street and end up having to do tweaking.

In looking at the DSC spec sheet for the 350R, they recommend alignment settings of -1.2 degrees of negative camber. Ford performance says the R should be at at least -1.75 (350 at -1.5) and actually a few that have tracked have noticed better performance even beyond that. I can say running mine at -2.0, the tire wear has improved dramatically as I went through the first set of tires quickly under stock settings/camber plates. I don't know if DSC did their homework on trying different camber settings for improved performance and improved tire shoulder wear. I notice on the spec sheets of many of the other vehicles on the DSC website (damper control modules only), they have distinct, separate settings for street and track. This calls into question 1) is DSC using the -1.2 camber setting as a baseline for testing for the GT350 vs the recommended -1.5-1.75; 2) is the delta improvement of 1.5 seconds on an insufficient camber setting that can otherwise be achieved with good camber plates and no magneride controller change; 3) Could calibration be further improved at other negative camber rates given all other cars with DSC controllers have multiple camber setting recommendations? 4) Having to tinker and test a bunch of permutations is not something that most of us operating at the HDPE level have time/interest for. 5) I find it interesting that despite the stock Magneride calibration being different for the GT350 and R from Ford, the DSC controller and software is the same for the 350 and the R, thereby further calling into question actual gains that can be achieved on an R with the DSC module vs the stock controller.

Really would like to see more independent data with proper track camber settings and tested on an R version.

Spec sheet link attached

http://www.dscsport.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/GT350-Alignment.pdf

 

[oldbmwfan]

When you’re quicker than the American Iron lap record for your track(not a high bar given this car’s capability), consider throwing some parts at it to see what happens.

I was wondering what people were using for benchmarks. This car is so much faster than any other *street* car I've driven on track, it's hard to know what it should be able to do - I just know I'm not milking it all.

I know BMW racing classes and times better than American Iron, but I looked up some lap records. At Mid-Ohio, AI fast times on the Club course are high 1:37s. My first time having the R on track was at MO Club course, and I managed 1:40 with a "theoretical" best of just under 1:38 (I am rusty and lack the consistency to string together all my best segments into one lap).

That theoretical best was line with the fastest of the BMW Club Racing IP class that same weekend, and a couple seconds off the C Modified leader. Also right in line with NASA GTS2 records. This is in a factory-stock R without even adjusting alignment settings.
I have to assume that the stock R in really capable hands is a sub-1:35 car at MO.

At VIR, that fastest cars in the same class run ~2:05s, so the R should be able to beat that pretty handily. I would assume a stock R could go sub-2, again not in my hands. That's hauling.

 

[Eritas]

Fog, you really don't think all us consumers are independently smarter than Ford's development team?

Can coilovers be set up to outperform the stock Magneride on track? Sure. Will it ride as good on the street? No. Will every coilover and shock settings be better than stock? No.

 

[Next Phase]

No sir, I'm going to have it installed. Do you know the weight of the Cooltech? From what I've found, roll bar weight can vary by 60 lbs or so. Also, what type of mods are you doing to your brakes? I'm considering carbon ceramics for the front to save 33 lbs but $6K for rotors on one axle is kinda steep.

And yes, we've definitely seen one another at C&C. Hope to you out soon, when things warm up!

I don't know the weight of the Cooltech, but the fit and install (not drilling near brake lines) has me leaning in that direction. I've got a 4 post lift, so it's something I plan to tackle myself (time permitting).

As far as brakes, just adding caliper fexion and stock pads. I'm really happy with the setup and don't see a need to upgrade the suspension and brakes. (I'm more focussed on improving the driver mod). I've got the FP track alignment and MM camber/caster plates.

(My new wheels with MP4S should arrive soon, so I'll have my wet day track setup).

If you haven't done NCCAR, I'd recommend that track. You can really push it and less of a risk balling up the car since most of the track is 70-90 mph with some fun constant radius turns.

There is an event in .March I'd like to attend and then the 3 day @ VIR around April 20th is on my list.

*Edit, I would definitely do the camber / caster plates and Ford Performance track alignment - mostly to save your front tires. VIR isn't bad at eating tires, but NCCAR nearly ate my sport cups in 1 day (stock set up - no FP alignment or C/C plates).

 

[Zitrosounds]

Screw after market and go custom!!! LOL
These guys took a 15' V6 and now have an "American Champ." They currently are running on a turbo coyote but have a 5.2L voodoo for future swap. The swap is not because they are chasing more power. Instead they are seeking efficiency, “We hope to take advantage of the bigger bore, and bigger flow of GT350 heads, to improve efficiency, looking to make the same power.”
http://www.mustangandfords.com/feat...-powerplant-domestic-road-racing-performance/

This record-setting Mustang GT350 with a turbocharged powerplant, leads the way in domestic road racing performance

American Champ: Is this turbocharged unibody the country’s fastest turning Mustang?

Jesse Kiser Contributor
January 8, 2018
Photos By: Luke Munnell

Greatness doesn’t come quickly. It took years of talent and determination to be the fastest uni-body Mustang in the country. In 2016, Brian Faessler’s Mustang had 22 wins out of 26 NASA races it competed in, three second-place finishes and six track records. In 2017, this car, along with its teammate, a championship-winning 1965 Mustang, set 10 track records. This GT350R Mustang racecar was built with a combination of talented mechanical engineering, experienced racing history and a strong relationship with Ford Performance. The car is only a couple years old, but its composition has been refined for three decades.
You may not know Paul Faessler’s name (Brian’s dad), but chances are you’ve seen his work. He and his team, which consists of just father and son, currently hold 13 NASA National Championships. Paul has been building Mustangs for over 30 years, previously working as a Mechanical Engineer building Camaros in a GM plant. His shop, Paul's Automotive Engineering, is comprised of a handful of employees, most of whom have been with him for over 20 years.

When he nabbed his first American Iron Extreme Championship in his 1965 Mustang in 2008, Ford Performance took notice and gave them a task: build the new 2010 Mustang in 90 days for the 2009 Performance Racing Industry trade show (PRI).


A couple years later, he picked up a bone-stock, brand-new 2015 Mustang. Still with that fresh, new-car interior and 6-cylinder powerplant, it didn’t last long. “We drove it for maybe a week, flogged it at a local road course, and by Tuesday it was gutted and the roof was off,” said Paul. Presently, the car has 2017 Ford Mustang GT350R body work, thanks to Ford Performance.
It’s hard to believe this car is licensed, registered and occasionally driven on the street. If the local Sheriff ever runs the tags, he’ll find it’s a 2015 Mustang V6 Coupe, but that’s far from the current reality. This is possibly the fastest road racing, late-model Mustangs in America.
Paul built this Mustang with his son, Brian, who luckily isn’t a high-brow, arrive-and-drive driver. He performs the majority of the maintenance on the car, while also working full time at a local Healthcare company.
In racing, you can’t let the competition see you sweat, so if you talk to Paul about the Mustang, he’ll convince you there hasn’t been a single significant issue. “We sit in the lawn chairs a lot at the race track,” said Paul, with an audible smirk through the phone as he knows how badly that has to piss off competitors. “We do all our homework at the shop before heading out. It’s just myself, my son and wife - that’s it. No track crew.”
After that first week with the Mustang, Brian pulled the glass and cut the A and C pillars out of the car, handling most of the dirty work himself. Anything that had two layers of metal was trimmed to one. He spent a few weeks simply cutting, drilling and removing every unnecessary tab. Then he built the roll cage and tig-welded it together.

The suspension is Paul’s own combination, designed on CAD and then built in house. It’s a short-arm, long-arm style with custom spindles, similar to that of a Trans Am race car. A complete, weld-in K member, that allows the car to constantly pulls two Gs of lateral acceleration. Adjustable points include camber, caster, anti-dive, with adjustable height by ⅛-inch increments, and an adjustable, tubular sway bar. You can also move the instant center around, making for a pretty solid package. “It’s a complete set up we've worked on for a long time, fortunately, we don’t have to mess with it much,” said Paul. “We’ve put it on a lot of different cars [including the 1965 Mustang], it’s pretty consistent.”
Naturally [pun-intended], the Mustang dropped the V6 quickly for a turbocharged Coyote 5.0L, that’s been heavily modified in-house. The Mustang has been the company’s link between racing and Ford Performance, as Paul’s engineering background has provided ample real-world R&D.

Starting with a Ford Performance 5.0 Boss 302 engine, Paul’s engine builder, Tim Rovecamp, who’s been with Paul for almost 30 years, added Wiseco BoostLine rods, Wiseco pistons and Cometic head gaskets. It still utilizes the stock crank, and compression remained the same at 11.0/1. Lash adjusters and followers are stock Ford Performance bits, but now accompanied by Ferrea valves, retainers and springs. It’s topped with a Cobra Jet intake and one twin 65mm throttle-body.
It’s a 5.0L Boss 302 Coyote crate engine from Ford Performance, with a stock crank, but Wiseco rods and pistons. It’s topped with a twin 65mm throttle-body and Cobra Jet intake. The plumbing is built in house, and the turbo is an 84mm unit built custom by TiAL specifically for the Mustang.
A turbocharged, domestic V8 is uncommon in the word of NASA road racing. The car has never seen over 13 pounds of boost, meaning the turbo’s strong suite is efficiency; it normally around around 7 pounds of boost. Depending on the tune, the car can make as much as 900hp to the wheels.
Fueling components include: Aeromotive fuel rails, Weldon regulator set to 40 psi, Injector Dynamics ID1000 with a 1015cc/min Nominal Flow Rate, a Weldon Racing Pumps DB2015A fuel pump and an Aero Tech Laboratories (ATL) 22 gallon Bantam fuel cell. “At the time, no single company had all the components we needed for the ratings we required,” said Paul.
Turbocharged-domestics are uncommon for NASA and Trans-Am racing, “I haven’t seen anybody else do it,” said Paul. The turbo is a custom TiAL Sport 84mm unit, designed and built uniquely for the Mustang.
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This car was built from the get-go to be turbo charged. Paul did it to make the power they needed, and expressed that with an N/A set up they’d always be at the engine’s stress level. “We can run low boost, and turn it up when we need it. It saves us a lot of wear and tear,” said Paul. The team has run this engine for a season and a half with only regular oil and spark plug changes.
They never run over 13 pounds of boost and a normal race sees seven pounds. Our favorite part of the set up is the huge range of adjustability, the car normally runs 700 hp to the wheels with around 650 lb-ft of torque but with a simple turn of the dial can make 900 hp, at 680 lb-ft. Like Ford Performance, Paul sends back data to TiAL. After a mid-season upgrade, TiAL was able to gain an extra 50 hp while lowering inlet temps. Paul said without help from companies like TiAL, they’d never be able to run as strong of a program.

The MoTeC GPA-M150 is a complicated system with huge capabilities, but Paul said their setup only touches the surface. They wired it to the car in order to collect important engine and suspension data, control the Coyote’s electronics including variable valve timing and fueling and even Traction Control (up to 9 variations of intrusion).
The MoTeC system allows for four preset tunes, which can be changed at the simple turn of a dial, even mid-race. Each tune ups the boost level and then automatically changes fueling and timing. “Brian will start a race in one mode, then get the lead and turn it down,” said Paul.
The 3-piece Forgeline GA3R wheels are 18-inches all around, and 12-inches wide in the front, 13-inches wide in the back. They’re wrapped in Hoosier slicks. Brakes are Brembo brand XB105 4-piston fixed calipers with Hawk pads and Tilton dual master cylinders.
For NASA racing, there’s door-to-door racing as well as time trial racing, for the single-lap fastest time. The team can simply range back the tune for easier door-to-door races and twist it up for the fastest single-lap possible. “We just monitor how fast we need to go,” said Paul about judging the competition and understanding track conditions before the races. He finished with a laugh, “We do like track records, if we haven’t broken it, by the end of the weekend we’ll turn it up and make a run for it.”
“This is the biggest thing we’ve done. We’re putting a Mustang in places that a unibody Mustang hasn’t been. It showcases our engine and tuning capability all in-house, it certainly is a showcase for our shop’s ability,” said Paul. “We’re proud of the fact that we make things look easy.”
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This winter the team has a 5.2L V8 in the lineup for a complete main engine build, shifting this current Coyote engine to backup. But like everything before it, the upgrade isn’t about making more power, but instead, making that power more efficiently. “We hope to take advantage of the bigger bore, and bigger flow of GT350 heads, to improve efficiency, looking to make the same power.”

2015 Season 6 – North American Road Race Association track records, including: Mid Ohio, Watkins Glen and Pitt Raceway
2016 Season 4 – National Auto Sport Association track records including: Mid Ohio, Virginia International Raceway, Pitt Raceway, Road Atlanta 1 – Global Time Attack at Road Atlanta
2017 Season 2 – NASA records at Pitt Raceway 1 – Global Time Attack at Road Atlanta 5 – Grid Life Time Attack records including: Mid Ohio, Autobahn, Road Atlanta.
Total: 19 records over 3 seasons
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[snaproll]

I’ve been on track with that missle a few times and it comes by a 400 hp car like you’re literally parked lol

 

[snaproll]

I was wondering what people were using for benchmarks. This car is so much faster than any other *street* car I've driven on track, it's hard to know what it should be able to do - I just know I'm not milking it all.

I know BMW racing classes and times better than American Iron, but I looked up some lap records. At Mid-Ohio, AI fast times on the Club course are high 1:37s. My first time having the R on track was at MO Club course, and I managed 1:40 with a "theoretical" best of just under 1:38 (I am rusty and lack the consistency to string together all my best segments into one lap).

That theoretical best was line with the fastest of the BMW Club Racing IP class that same weekend, and a couple seconds off the C Modified leader. Also right in line with NASA GTS2 records. This is in a factory-stock R without even adjusting alignment settings.
I have to assume that the stock R in really capable hands is a sub-1:35 car at MO.

At VIR, that fastest cars in the same class run ~2:05s, so the R should be able to beat that pretty handily. I would assume a stock R could go sub-2, again not in my hands. That's hauling.

Sounds about right. And yeah, I was just throwing out a widely available yardstick as in, “if you’re not going that fast, you’re not pushing the car.”

I thought I was going to lynched awhile back when I said it should easily go low 20’s at Sebring. Now that I’ve driven it, I see teens! Keep in mind the GT350 has 100 more HP, better brakes, and bigger tires. Offset by a little lack of aero, higher weight, and some rubbery suspension parts. I could see the rear bushings and of course the camber plates being a real nice first mods as someone pointed out earlier.

Great chassis. The downside is the cost of operation as has been pointed out to me by guys who run them. Take out a headlight and it’s crazy money compared to the old cars with their mature aftermarket. Like in $1000 vs $50 crazy.

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