GT350 vs. Z/28

[Taneras]

Oh, this isn't an argument, just rubbing their noses in it.

So that long illustrated post wasn't an argument trying to show that the GT350 will be faster than the GT3 based off of what Periack said combined with the autoweek and motortrend comparisons between the GT3 and the Z28? Because it sure seemed like that to me.

Magazines are inconsistent... how can you not see that? I did not write these articles nor did I drive during the comparisons. Using this method, I can already find an instance where a GTPP ran a slightly faster lap than a 1LE.

No, that's the issue you aren't using their method. You even alluded to this earlier. You're comparing different conditions and different drivers. The most accurate way is the same driver and as close to the same driving conditions that can be obtained.

So long as its done that way, there's nothing wrong with basing an opinion on that. That's about as accurate as it gets.

...why is it void when the Mustang wins?

Not sure why you're asking me this, I've never said anything of the sort.

Why is racing in general null and void? Because the Mustang wins and the Camaro doesn't?

No, because those cars are modified. A modified 1LE isn't a 1LE anymore, its something else. The same goes for the GTPP.

Moreover, there are restrictions laid out by the SCCA with regards to what is allowed and what isn't. Didn't some Boss 302 drivers sit out a race in protest back in 2012 because of intakes being too restrictive? How could this happen? I thought the SCCA was a good benchmark? Where were you on this issue? Were you telling them to shut up and race and that the SCCA is a good benchmark and we shouldn't question what they allow and don't allow?

Sorry, I'm going to care more about comparing stock cars in a similar price range. Mostly because that's what most people will end up with. And also because its silly to compare modified cars based off what some committee says is or is not allowed.

Why is a single lap used as gospel and 3 seasons of competitive racing is dismissed? It is nonsense...

Because its an apples and oranges comparison.

Yes, if you're forced to modify your GT a certain way, and your competition is forced to modify their cars a certain way, the GT will win most of the time.

But if you compare what rolls off the showroom floor, the 1LE wins.

Happy?

I wonder if we took a poll which one would people care about more?

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[02gtnh]

Both the GT and C7 have a 1:24 at SoW. The GTPP time is slightly faster. Sure, different days, different drivers but the gap is closing. Indirectly in most cases but it won't be long before the Mustang/Corvette question starts being asked.

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/willow_springs_-_streets_of_willow.html

This will never happen. No one will ever compare a Corvette to the new GT Mustang. Plus your really dreaming if you don't think different drivers don't make much of a difference. Those race times hold no weight what so ever to a head to head battle, and anybody with race experience will tell you a driver makes a huge difference. Anybody that says different hasn't raced.

 

[thePill]

This will never happen. No one will ever compare a Corvette to the new GT Mustang. Plus your really dreaming if you don't think different drivers don't make much of a difference. Those race times hold no weight what so ever to a head to head battle, and anybody with race experience will tell you a driver makes a huge difference. Anybody that says different hasn't raced.

So we can agree from here on out that all these "Fastest Laps, Lighting Laps and NurburgRinger" are just nonsense.

I would still like to use 3rd Party and Motorsport to validate a vehicle though. It is the only real way.

With the GTPP, you get far more for your money. Especially when using the $38,000 1LE and $41,000 Boss 302 for comparison. Comparing a 1LE to a GTPP can be done sure, I would like the GT to undergo some of the same extensive R&D and equipment the 1LE was privileged to. I am dying for a Coyote/3160 w/ a 3.91 in a 10th Anniversary Mustang GT-R... Not gonna happen this year... only when one is needed I assume.

 

[02gtnh]

So we can agree from here on out that all these "Fastest Laps, Lighting Laps and NurburgRinger" are just nonsense.
.

Pretty much. The only ones I consider that pull any weight are those with same driver. There is a car at VIR that was driven by 2 different people and there was over a 5 sec difference in time. Same car, but way different time.

 

[thePill]

Pretty much. The only ones I consider that pull any weight are those with same driver. There is a car at VIR that was driven by 2 different people and there was over a 5 sec difference in time. Same car, but way different time.

The Lightning Lap is performed over the span of 5 days using 6 to 8 editor/drivers. In most cases, each class (LL1, LL2 ect, ect) can take anywhere between 2-5 days depending on the car count.

Furthermore, the Lightning Lap is ALWAYS performed in some type of traffic. That's right, each of these timed laps have a significant chance on an encounter with another tester/class. This is evident in the Boss 302 video of it's run in 2011/'12 (can't remember). There was also rain that was reported in the article and seen in the video but never really brought up as much as the z28's infamous 11 seconds of Typhoon they claim it received and cost it 6 seconds. That's Okay though.. they stopped the clock early to compensate for that act of God. Good on them... Official it is!!!

The 2013 GT500 also lapped in the rain and with a Fiat 500 I am told... There is very little fair comparisons in these test. Even the z28 v. 911 v. GT-R the cars were run in completely different conditions. The 911 and GT-R were run in the morning/afternoon when temps were at the lowest. Then they let out the air in the tires and ran the z28 again... until it managed to win...

...and proceeded to notify Mark Reuss personally once it did win? WTF?!?!?

These magazines are getting out of hand... it's like the WWE and they are eating it up and selling whatever they sh!t out.




...and then some people are eating that :(

 

[thePill]

911 991? Foot in mouth...

If that was say a Carrera S, I would say those may be GT350TP's and a GTPP. There could also be a GT350R in there too, you just never know.

If the GT350TP is being compared to the Carrera S, that would be dangerously close to the Stingray Z51. I mean... like right in there... Maybe the optioned wheels can tell us something.

 

[Taneras]

I would still like to use 3rd Party and Motorsport to validate a vehicle though. It is the only real way.

I understand that you like to, I just don't understand why.

Again, the SCCA imposed such strict intake restrictions on the Boss 302 that caused drivers to protest by sitting out a race back in 2012. When you have a committee of people picking and choosing what car gets what and what car has to be restricted on what, how can you think that this is the best benchmark?

 

[MrPoopALot]

I understand that you like to, I just don't understand why.

Again, the SCCA imposed such strict intake restrictions on the Boss 302 that caused drivers to protest by sitting out a race back in 2012. When you have a committee of people picking and choosing what car gets what and what car has to be restricted on what, how can you think that this is the best benchmark?

I myself don't get how comparing cars that are altered is a more fair comparison than taking one of each from showroom floor and running them against each other.

 

[thePill]

I understand that you like to, I just don't understand why.

Again, the SCCA imposed such strict intake restrictions on the Boss 302 that caused drivers to protest by sitting out a race back in 2012. When you have a committee of people picking and choosing what car gets what and what car has to be restricted on what, how can you think that this is the best benchmark?

That is a very, very good question. Why Motorsport?

Racing is one of the single most important aspects for vehicles like these. Many of the S197's improvements since 2005 were developed on the race track. The DC2, Coyote, Boss 302 and now the GT350 were all derived from the Racing Program. With the intention that some of those S197's would return to the tracks in which they were developed on and for. Because racing is Mustang... and Ford made it easy for anyone to do.

The S197 was far from optimal, more than the 5th Gen but still far from perfect. Even the S550's optimal footprint came from toying with the S197 and finding the sweet spot... so we don't need a damn wide-body kit to play with the big boys. Again, this year, the OEM GT350 will be forged from the Multimatic GT350 as with the Boss 302. This is opposite of how the z28 was developed.

Factory Racing has gained some momentum and people are starting to come back. The appeal is there again... and that is why Motorsport matters to me...

You mentioned the Boss 302 had been restricted to insane amounts right? Do you know why that is?

Because they allow lesser cars to compete in the class to keep car counts high. A perfect example of this would have been the 2005-'09 Mustang, 2010-'15 Camaro, 2009-2015 Challenger and the WRX in general.

Like I said, the Mustang slowly made it's way from the Monroe Handler during the Mustang II era up to a legitimate, World Class Mustang that will be starting next month.

Overall, the Touring classes are pretty close to OEM, more so than the z28 in CTSC. The Amateur side is definitely close to OEM and really show you what is desirable as far as your platforms go. These classes were littered with S197's, soon to be S550's I'm sure.

In factory racing, the competitive responsibility is placed on the manufacturer. Set the bar!!! Produce the car!!!

I myself don't get how comparing cars that are altered is a more fair comparison than taking one of each from showroom floor and running them against each other.

Racing is and always will be what these cars are about. Not some one-lap wonder for marketing purposes. Nobody in real racing is quick to go out and use a 5th Gen Camaro anything. It is just a bad selection for road racing, the low car count should indicate a problem.

When the 1LE beat the GT (S197 or S550) in a magazine comparison I would expect similar results outside of the article. The 1LE was not performing as the magazines say they should. In some cases, even if the car performs terrible, they may never say anything about it. Remember the 2010 SS running off the track at Willow? They never said anything until the z28's review... about 4 years later...

Is there a possibility GM/Ford could perhaps give the publication what the industry calls a "Ringer". This is a vehicle that has been enhanced and optimized for that particular test. This would more than likely be things that would go unseen... Like a hot tune, weight reduction, quality fluids or tire pressure (lol). A hot tune can be used for the test because emissions do not exist, nor do they worry about fuel efficiency.

A good example of this would be the ZL1 and it's 1/4 mile time. Something changed from the test in the Spring and the test in the Fall.

The new Z06 didn't make it out the door before it was observed pulling power :(

A Head to Head is great fun but it needs to back it up Racing. While the 1LE and z28 posted killer comparison results, they were never used. The reality is, people do not use the 5th Gen for Road Racing. There are many, many, many problems that make a 5th Gen a poor choice. That is evident during car counts.

The 2005 Mustang GTR signified that the Mustang would be returning to Motorsports. Sure, the Mustang never really left but... the OEM structure was, for the first time since 1970, making an appearance in competitive and organized Motorsport. This is why the MGTR is pretty special to me, over time, I actually got to witness the Mustang meet the requirements one after another throughout the years...

...becoming an ultra-competitive and legitimate World Class Sport Coupe...

 

[thePill]

Because THIS should matter...

Unfortunately, these z28's are not really z28's... They got rid of all the equipment that made it a z28. The OEM z28 came first, that is a bad move when developing a race car isn't it?

Shouldn't you start WITH the race car then develop an OEM offering based on what you've got passed the rulebook with?

The S197 ended the same way it began... Winning... Through the years, the S197 evolved into a factory race car save but a few pieces.

You can buy these at a Dealership now.

 

[Taneras]

You mentioned the Boss 302 had been restricted to insane amounts right? Do you know why that is?

Because they allow lesser cars to compete in the class to keep car counts high.

This serves my point, though. They have various goals that they're trying to reach by implementing various restrictions and allowances.

This isn't a "Lets do our best to see which manufacturer is making the best car for this class" set up. It's a "How can we set up various restrictions and allowances to accomplish goals x, y, and z.".

Again, I don't think anyone is arguing that the S197 hasn't had much more success in T2. It's just that stock for stock, the 1LE is better and that more people seem to care about the latter - probably because they see how pointless it is to try and compare cars when it comes to the SCCA who clearly aren't trying to see which car is fastest.

Unfortunately, these z28's are not really z28's... They got rid of all the equipment that made it a z28. The OEM z28 came first, that is a bad move when developing a race car isn't it?

Shouldn't you start WITH the race car then develop an OEM offering based on what you've got passed the rulebook with?

I just don't see how you can simultaneously point to the SCCA as proof that the mustang is superior then complain about the allowances they give to the Z28. Tough to argue that the SCCA is a good benchmark and at the same time complain about that benchmark.

 

[thePill]

This serves my point, though. They have various goals that they're trying to reach by implementing various restrictions and allowances.

This isn't a "Lets do our best to see which manufacturer is making the best car for this class" set up. It's a "How can we set up various restrictions and allowances to accomplish goals x, y, and z.".

Again, I don't think anyone is arguing that the S197 has had much more success in T2. It's just that stock for stock, the 1LE is better and that more people seem to care about the latter - probably because they see how pointless it is to try and compare cars when it comes to the SCCA who clearly aren't trying to see which car is fastest.

I see your point and I understand how it looks. My issue was, the GT will never see the vast improvements the SS did. It all comes down to dominating the class but appearing impotent in the magazines. The GT was beginning to push the limits of the class and there really wasn't much room left to wiggle.

The 1LE did great in the magazine comparison but wasn't enough to push Ford into another GT upgrade. I would have loved a 3450lbs Boss Intake,Coyote/TR6060 combo via MGTR. It just wouldn't happen on a magazine comparison loss alone. It would take actual movement elsewhere :(

I just don't see how you can simultaneously point to the SCCA as proof that the mustang is superior then complain about the allowances they give to the Z28. Tough to argue that the SCCA is a good benchmark and at the same time complain about that benchmark.

The z28 in CTSC is a different story all together. The OEM version was built first, outside of racing altogether. Chevy didn't start testing the z28.R for Daytona until the week prior to the Roar. The Boss 302 and GT350 were actually built to comply with the Grand Am/CTSC Rulebook. The Boss and GT350 are only built to homologate the real thing in CTSC. The OEM z28 was built first and then 3rd party suppliers build the z28 to spec. If the z28 was held to the same homologation standard the Boss 302 and GT350 were, it would have never got the insane equipment that enabled the car to do the things it did in those test. Everything from the disc size, CCB, shocks, wheels, tires, transmission, engine is GMP, rear end/axles and exterior body panels are CF.

The Z/28.R is further from the z28 than the GS.R was from the SS...

It is also a 7 liter V8 that was nearly unrestricted at first and, is still less so than the Boss and M3. It is soooo sad....

 

[Stuntman]

If the z28 was held to the same homologation standard the Boss 302 and GT350 were, it would have never got the insane equipment that enabled the car to do the things it did in those test. Everything from the disc size, CCB, shocks, wheels, tires, transmission, engine is GMP, rear end/axles and exterior body panels are CF..

No car in that series uses the factory shocks, swaybars, wheels, or tires. IIRC, the Z28R uses the stock engine and trans and only the hood, doors, and trunk car CF.

 

[thePill]

No car in that series uses the factory shocks, swaybars, wheels, or tires. IIRC, the Z28R uses the stock engine and trans and only the hood, doors, and trunk car CF.

No, the transmission is the same as the Camaro GS.R's. Edit: The Z/28.R in CTSC does NOT use factory wheels, tires, sways or shocks.

Look at this guys' GTPP! These things are hot!!!

Yea, its not like you used that comparison as a benchmark to compare the GT350 to the Z28 based off of what Dave Periack said about why one should pick the GT350 over the GT3 in a long and illustrated post. No, that would be just outrageous for someone to do. It was simply an amusing side point that had nothing to do with the GT350 vs Z28. How did you actually connect the two cars exactly? We know you didn't use the Z28's race against the GT3 as support for your argument. So what was it again?

I just noticed this... I am eager to see how the GT350R does against the 911 GT3 (and maybe the RS) which is why I did the inquiry. I have seen the z28 put against the GT3 on two occasions, neither ended well for the z28.

I find the GT350R at more than one disadvantage. It will be difficult for the GT350 to win a Head to Head Lap-a-thon with what I listed a few pages back. Wouldn't you agree??? It was a specific comment made by Dave too and considering that the z28 has already been tested, there is a lot of GT3 data to look at.

A commonly overlooked statement was the one that said the GT350R will have approximately the same Power to Weight ratio as the 911 GT3... that has got to count for something does it not?

Did it contain the z28? Yeah, it did, I included the z28 into my GT350 and GT3 hyparison... it was just waaaaaaaaaaay back there. It lacks the PtW to be relevant in the R conversation. Maybe the GT350 or GT350TP perhaps.

 

[Todd15Fastback]

Hot, hot indeed!! People are always coming up asking about the car, telling me how good it looks, etc.

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