GT350 vs. Z/28

[Taneras]

I would always expect a competition focused, limited run 1LE to show more capability on a track than a fully loaded, volume Premium GT with a "Performance" package.

You were led to believe, by a SINGLE publication, that the 1LE would handle an S197 GT, Boss 302 and '15 GTPP.

Which is it? Does the Zeta 1LE actually out perform the S550 GTPP as one would expect, or was the publication wrong?

Besides, the 1LE needs to handle the previous GT's in it's own class before claiming victory. The 2012, '13 and '14 seasons were disgraceful.

I think the conversation is about what these cars can do off the showroom floor, not what they can be modified to do.

Except only a few thousand has been built to supply demand. It is limited...

:doh:

So its limitation is public demand? And the S550 GT PP isn't limited in that same sense - by public demand?

I'd actually struggle to imagine many products that aren't limited by public demand. This seems like a silly distinction to be made for products sold in a capitalistic marketplace.

I do agree the intended applications for the GTPP and the 1LE differ and that the comparison isn't the best, but that's par for the course for many auto comparisons. Regardless, I do believe the 1LE beat the S550 GTPP. The GT350R vs Z28 will be interesting, though, because their intended applications are clearly the same.

I am worried about the Alpha Camaro vs the S550, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over a car that hasn't been revealed yet. It will be interesting to see what Chevy throws out.

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[thePill]

Which is it? Does the Zeta 1LE actually out perform the S550 GTPP as one would expect, or was the publication wrong?



I think the conversation is about what these cars can do off the showroom floor, not what they can be modified to do.



:doh:

So its limitation is public demand? And the S550 GT PP isn't limited in that same sense - by public demand?

I'd actually struggle to imagine many products that aren't limited by public demand. This seems like a silly distinction to be made for products sold in a capitalistic marketplace.

I do agree the intended applications for the GTPP and the 1LE differ and that the comparison isn't the best, but that's par for the course for many auto comparisons. Regardless, I do believe the 1LE beat the S550 GTPP. The GT350R vs Z28 will be interesting, though, because their intended applications are clearly the same.

I am worried about the Alpha Camaro vs the S550, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over a car that hasn't been revealed yet. It will be interesting to see what Chevy throws out.

To be honest, I don't know if the 1LE is faster or not. I can't get passed all the media jerking Chevy/GM's chain just to keep them in business. The GTPP is certainly capable of producing 1LE lap times on the same tracks but, we will never reference anything other than that single lap, by a single source one single time. It is sad many of you (especially you) would put stock in a magazine article. Sure, the GTPP did record laps faster than both the 1LE AND the Stingray at those respective tracks. Of course, here comes the whining about different day, different driver... but when Nurburgring or Lighting Lap is discussed.. well holy sh!t... it is valid. I really don't care, I'm not buying it. These would be the same people that went off the track in a 5th Gen and NEVER said anything until the z28 came out. They even went on to have you believe that it was a great handling car, even though it went off the track at Willow. It's bogus and anyone clinging to their b@lls deserves exactly what is rolling over them today.

T2 isn't as modded as you would think and besides, the 1LE was built specifically to T2 spec, for the SCCA... and it got it's ass handed back to it by a bunch of S197's. Brakes, wheels, tires are about it in T2... If the 1LE can't compete with the previous GT, I find it hard to believe that the same car will better do against a better offering. That is just the way it crumbled.. Just because I don't invest all of my opinion in a single lap doesn't mean the GTPP can't overcome a competition focused 1LE. It is faster than the Boss 302 by a large margin and that is from 3rd parties, somewhere I would rather invest my attention. Don't bring the "modded" argument here to avoid a Racing argument. That's all those fools want to do is avoid any racing conversation. It is cowardly to complete laps and race the world but NEVER, EVER do a damn thing is real racing. It is a misdirection, a misdirection from the truth... that Chevy can't build racecars anymore with out help from a 3rd party.

Okay, I don't care what you think, the 1LE had specific testing and engineering for competitive racing. This will piggyback (pun) off the 1LE and Chevy's failure at SCCA T2 and the z28 in general. It is in fact a very limited production car, whether they said it was limited by a specific number is irrelevant. The truth is, they only had to meet a minimum production number and that was it. The GT is just a GT, pretty basic and the R&D was done along side the other Mustang's. The GT is produced whether there are orders for them or not. The 1LE had a target number and any special orders would fill in from that. I don't think Ford is going to invest that much go-fast parts on a car they make 35,000-45,000 a year. The Performance Pack was only built to SCCA spec, it never required homologation due to mass production. The z28 and 1LE did... It is limited...

Put it this way, the Boss and 1LE's production numbers are pretty close. Do you expect a 1SS to encroach on anything the Boss did?

No... Only an idiot would expect an SS to beat the Boss. Like the GTPP, the SS FE4 could possibly hold it's own against the Boss. It wouldn't be a 2-5 second blowout but, it would be more competitive.

On the other hand, the GTPP IS actually running 1LE and C7 times on some tracks. I would say at least an upset of the 1LE is very likely... something NO 1SS, 2SS or SS FE4 can say for the Boss.

If the 1LE was initially worth a sh!t in it's class, I wouldn't be begging for the return of the Mustang GT-R. Ford would have answered with a more competition focused GT. The S197 didn't need to do anymore, it was killing the 1LE... and continued to kill it for 3 seasons. The Chevy factory driver abandon the 1LE and 5th Gen 3 years in a row mid-season to return to a winning car in T1... The C6 Corvette.

DID YOU HEAR WHAT I SAID??

Todd Napieralski, YOUR FACTORY DRIVER, just walked away from a factory backed ride, mid-season, for 3 seasons straight. What does that tell you about the 5th Gen and 1LE. A factory team in T2 couldn't muster anything better than a 15th overall. Please...

:doh:

 

[MrPoopALot]

Dude.. The 1LE is not a fucking model line. It's a performance pack to the SS. Saying "GT is produced whether there are orders for them or not" is idiotic. The 1LE is no different to SS than a PP is to GT.

 

[thePill]

Dude.. The 1LE is not a fucking model line. It's a performance pack to the SS. Saying "GT is produced whether there are orders for them or not" is idiotic. The 1LE is no different to SS than a PP is to GT.

Please...

FYI, the 1LE is completely dependent on the MM6 from the Z06.

How many do you actually think they could make?

Umm... Probably limited to what the z28 is now. Back then, you had the Z06 and 1LE using up those transmissions. Less than what? 5000 LS7's and MM6's made a year. Once the Z06 left, the z28 grabbed up it's share of the LS7/MM6's and the 1LE continued production as usual.

It is LIMITED... always has been since they said "MM6".

I doesn't matter because demand was LIMITED.

The only reason the 1LE was decided on was to shake off the SS's restrictions it had gained since 2009. The MM6 and 3:91's took everyone and the SCCA off guard. Since it was a late Spring 2012 release, it wasn't until Feb 2013 the rulebooks reflected the 1LE, as well as restrictions. They tried to smash and grab a championship like the Boss did (and the GT350 will likely try).

Order as a package if you want... once the drivetrain gets changed as the 1LE's did, I have a hard time comparing the two. It allowed Chevy to roll into the SCCA with some SS badges on it looking like a broke ass SS. But it was NOT an SS underneath.

 

[Taneras]

It is sad many of you (especially you) would put stock in a magazine article.

Unless they're comparing the Z28 vs a GT3, right? :lol:

Tell you what, when I put so much stock in a magazine article that I deem one car "vanquished, destroyed, made a fool of, pooped out and pooped on..." you can tell me I'm relying on a magazine article too much. Until then moderate your own posts.

Sure, the GTPP did record laps faster than both the 1LE AND the Stingray at those respective tracks. Of course, here comes the whining about different day, different driver... but when Nurburgring or Lighting Lap is discussed.. well holy sh!t... it is valid.

First you complain about quoting magazine articles despite you do it yourself, and now this? You seem to have something against consistency. That sounds like a valid complaint about ring times, so you're clearly mixing me up with someone else, quite dramatically I might add, because I'd think that would be a valid critique that could account for small amounts of time.

They even went on to have you believe that it was a great handling car, even though it went off the track at Willow.

Is this really the standard you want to judge cars by? Consistently, of course.

T2 isn't as modded as you would think and besides, the 1LE was built specifically to T2 spec, for the SCCA... and it got it's ass handed back to it by a bunch of S197's. Brakes, wheels, tires are about it in T2...

And when Ford includes those in a factory package I'd be thrilled to see how it would compete against other stock vehicles in the same price range. Until then it deserves very little mention in a discussion/comparison about how two stock vehicles match up.

If the 1LE can't compete with the previous GT, I find it hard to believe that the same car will better do against a better offering. That is just the way it crumbled.. Just because I don't invest all of my opinion in a single lap doesn't mean the GTPP can't overcome a competition focused 1LE. It is faster than the Boss 302 by a large margin and that is from 3rd parties, somewhere I would rather invest my attention. Don't bring the "modded" argument here to avoid a Racing argument. That's all those fools want to do is avoid any racing conversation. It is cowardly to complete laps and race the world but NEVER, EVER do a damn thing is real racing. It is a misdirection, a misdirection from the truth... that Chevy can't build racecars anymore with out help from a 3rd party.

To be honest this just sounds like a bunch of whining... You want to point to the SCAA's T2 class when the S550 GTPP loses to the Zeta 1LE and not even realize how inconsistent you're being when back in July you were complaining about how unfair certain restrictions were.

Either this is a good standard of measurement as to how these cars compare, or its not. You cannot complain about it when it doesn't get you the results you want to see then point to it as evidence to support your case when it does.

Moreover, a GTPP/1LE ceases being whatever it is and becomes something else entirely when you throw thousands and thousands of dollars at it - made more skewed when you let someone else tell you how you can modify it and how you must restrict it. At that point you're no longer actually comparing 1LE's and GTPP's, you're comparing something else. That's why most people want to see stock vs stock comparisons.

It is in fact a very limited production car, whether they said it was limited by a specific number is irrelevant.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but consistency of definitions is very important. If limited production means limited by consumer demand (which you said, or at least implied, earlier) then the the Performance Package for the GT is every as bit as "limited" as the 1LE is. This is a horrible excuse to try and fabricate.

The truth is, they only had to meet a minimum production number and that was it. The GT is just a GT, pretty basic and the R&D was done along side the other Mustang's. The GT is produced whether there are orders for them or not. The 1LE had a target number and any special orders would fill in from that. I don't think Ford is going to invest that much go-fast parts on a car they make 35,000-45,000 a year. The Performance Pack was only built to SCCA spec, it never required homologation due to mass production. The z28 and 1LE did... It is limited...

Limited by what exactly? Certainly not a maximum amount produced.

 

[Todd15Fastback]

Dude.. The 1LE is not a fucking model line. It's a performance pack to the SS. Saying "GT is produced whether there are orders for them or not" is idiotic. The 1LE is no different to SS than a PP is to GT.

You sure do get your panties ruffled on this board. Between this thread and the Focus RS, I think you are a Camaro and Subaru/Evo lover and don't care for the Mustang or other Ford performance vehicles.

The only difference between the 1LE and PP is the sheer number of vehicles produced:lol:

 

[Trackaholic]

The 1LE is not limited from a buyer's perspective. You can always spec one when you order your car. Same as the GT/PP (but the 1LE is more track focused, hence the lower number of people ordering it).

I would rather have a 3300 lbs, 500 HP GT350R than a 3550 lbs, 535 HP one, but I think it is much harder to get weight out than to add power. I suspect we'll be closer to the heavier, more powerful version.

Pill, you said the GTPP was running Stingray times at certain tracks? This sounds like hyperbole, as that is very unlikely. The C7 is a very fast car, and I think it would take the GT350 to run similar times (or a modified GTPP).

-T

 

[MrPoopALot]

You sure do get your panties ruffled on this board. Between this thread and the Focus RS, I think you are a Camaro and Subaru/Evo lover and don't care for the Mustang or other Ford performance vehicles.

The only difference between the 1LE and PP is the sheer number of vehicles produced:lol:

I care for cars, not for Ford. I own a Mustang with an intoxicating 5 litre and 3.73 gears. It's a fun overall car, but i'm not going to be humping any manufacturer and blindly hyping cars. I also own a Subaru Legacy.. A very pedestrian car that does the job in fuel economy and in the snow. I have no horse in this race and want the all cars to get better by pushing each other.

As far as Camaro goes, yes, I'm looking forward to seeing it. I most likely will not keep my 2013 Mustang for a long time. Maybe I'll replace both of my cars with the RS.. Who knows? I have to test drive them before I pull the trigger.

 

[thePill]

Unless they're comparing the Z28 vs a GT3, right? :lol:

Tell you what, when I put so much stock in a magazine article that I deem one car "vanquished, destroyed, made a fool of, pooped out and pooped on..." you can tell me I'm relying on a magazine article too much. Until then moderate your own posts.



First you complain about quoting magazine articles despite you do it yourself, and now this? You seem to have something against consistency. That sounds like a valid complaint about ring times, so you're clearly mixing me up with someone else, quite dramatically I might add, because I'd think that would be a valid critique that could account for small amounts of time.

Is this really the standard you want to judge cars by? Consistently, of course.



And when Ford includes those in a factory package I'd be thrilled to see how it would compete against other stock vehicles in the same price range. Until then it deserves very little mention in a discussion/comparison about how two stock vehicles match up.



To be honest this just sounds like a bunch of whining... You want to point to the SCAA's T2 class when the S550 GTPP loses to the Zeta 1LE and not even realize how inconsistent you're being when back in July you were complaining about how unfair certain restrictions were.

Either this is a good standard of measurement as to how these cars compare, or its not. You cannot complain about it when it doesn't get you the results you want to see then point to it as evidence to support your case when it does.

Moreover, a GTPP/1LE ceases being whatever it is and becomes something else entirely when you throw thousands and thousands of dollars at it - made more skewed when you let someone else tell you how you can modify it and how you must restrict it. At that point you're no longer actually comparing 1LE's and GTPP's, you're comparing something else. That's why most people want to see stock vs stock comparisons.



I'm sorry you feel that way, but consistency of definitions is very important. If limited production means limited by consumer demand (which you said, or at least implied, earlier) then the the Performance Package for the GT is every as bit as "limited" as the 1LE is. This is a horrible excuse to try and fabricate.



Limited by what exactly? Certainly not a maximum amount produced.

I am not placing my entire stock in a single article that made a single lap. Yes, the z28 was vanquished, pooped on and so on... They wanted that comparison and they got it. It just didn't turn out how they thought. I find it amusing and I'm not using an article to base my opinion on. That is just dumb and many of you that confide in this method are classified as such... dumb... I am merely rubbing it in and using their own stupidity against them. Watching the fanboys squeal when their belief system collapses. I'm just pointing out where the pieces landed. I didn't build these shitty cars...

It is Chevy's game and they are losing it. It only serves them right.

Cars wreck at Nurburgring, the GT3 wrecked last year as well. It happens often. Mustang's wreck in Motor sport too, Is it whining? When your dumb ass can't engineer a vehicle for class racing? This isn't whining... IT's WINNING... unfortunately, Chevy people will go to extreme lengths to avoid racing discussion. Bringing up a wreck during testing shows your purpose and argument here is coming to an end. You are reaching now for something that is not there. The Camaro failed in racing... fact... 1000 Mustang's could hit the wall and that wouldn't change that fact...

The 1LE is limited by many things, equipment being one of them. That is just the way it is. There was NEVER any intention for the 1LE to be volume. Once LS7 equipment was decided on,that should have been a dead giveaway... but hey... whatever saves your argument...

 

[thePill]

The 1LE is not limited from a buyer's perspective. You can always spec one when you order your car. Same as the GT/PP (but the 1LE is more track focused, hence the lower number of people ordering it).

I would rather have a 3300 lbs, 500 HP GT350R than a 3550 lbs, 535 HP one, but I think it is much harder to get weight out than to add power. I suspect we'll be closer to the heavier, more powerful version.

Pill, you said the GTPP was running Stingray times at certain tracks? This sounds like hyperbole, as that is very unlikely. The C7 is a very fast car, and I think it would take the GT350 to run similar times (or a modified GTPP).

-T

Both the GT and C7 have a 1:24 at SoW. The GTPP time is slightly faster. Sure, different days, different drivers but the gap is closing. Indirectly in most cases but it won't be long before the Mustang/Corvette question starts being asked.

Ah, here ya' go. As you said, it is merely fodder for these teeners to tweet about. Is this any different than the Nurburgring gauge these guys constantly resort to? Not to me...it is just as moronic. However, if I did value those things, it makes an argument in this area difficult to win does it not?

Which is why these things are a grain of salt.

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/willow_springs_-_streets_of_willow.html

 

[Taneras]

I find it amusing, not using an article to base my opinion on.

Yea, its not like you used that comparison as a benchmark to compare the GT350 to the Z28 based off of what Dave Periack said about why one should pick the GT350 over the GT3 in a long and illustrated post. :lol: No, that would be just outrageous for someone to do. It was simply an amusing side point that had nothing to do with the GT350 vs Z28. How did you actually connect the two cars exactly? We know you didn't use the Z28's race against the GT3 as support for your argument. So what was it again?

Cars wreck at Nurburgring, the GT3 wrecked last year as well. It happens often. Mustang's wreck in Motor sport too, Is it whining?

I never said that that particular point was whining, I was suggesting that its a very silly way to determine whether a car can handle well or not. You said the 1LE went off the track and they still tried to sell it as a good handling car as a critique. If that's a valid critique, well you know where I'm going...

As far as the whining goes, is the SCCA a good standard or not? If it is, then you cannot argue with any standards they set. If its not, then don't use it as a good benchmark.

When your dumb ass can't engineer a vehicle for class racing? This isn't whining... IT's WINNING... unfortunately, Chevy people will go to extreme lengths to avoid racing discussion.

Interesting you keep trying to paint me as a chevy fanboy when I've only driven mustangs my entire life. I'm attempting to be as unbiased as possible.

The 1LE is limited by many things, equipment being one of them. That is just the way it is. There was NEVER any intention for the 1LE to be volume.

So? I don't see how that's a valid critique that gives the S550 GTPP a leg up. Any consumer can get a 1LE easy, its not like a fabled unicorn that, despite, at least allegedly, being faster, no one would be able to get ahold of one so you might as well look at other models.

 

[thePill]

Yea, its not like you used that comparison as a benchmark to compare the GT350 to the Z28 based off of what Dave Periack said about why one should pick the GT350 over the GT3 in a long and illustrated post. :lol: No, that would be just outrageous for someone to do. It was simply an amusing side point that had nothing to do with the GT350 vs Z28. How did you actually connect the two cars exactly? We know you didn't use the Z28's race against the GT3 as support for your argument. So what was it again?

Awww... did someone insult your favorite car?

I think the battle between the Mustang and the Porsche will be decided elsewhere.

You, among others, place your faith in magazine numbers. When those magazine numbers turn against you, it drives you insane.

Yes, two magazine articles, on two different occasions put the 911 GT against the z28 and both of them said the same thing. I have a feeling that we won't see any z28's challenging any Porsche's in SCCA or CTSC either.

In fact, if there was a 3rd article that put a z28 against a GT3 it too would probably come to the same conclusion...

 

[Taneras]

Awww... did someone insult your favorite car?

I think the battle between the Mustang and the Porsche will be decided elsewhere.

You, among others, place your faith in magazine numbers. When those magazine numbers turn against you, it drives you insane.

Yes, two magazine articles, on two different occasions put the 911 GT against the z28 and both of them said the same thing. I have a feeling that we won't see any z28's challenging any Porsche's in SCCA or CTSC either.

In fact, if there was a 3rd article that put a z28 against a GT3 it too would probably come to the same conclusion...

I actually think the GT350 will out perform the Z28 and the version that does it will likely cost less too. I'll be thrilled.

Now that we're past your failed attempts at mind reading, you did use a magazine article as a basis for your argument. That's being inconsistent. How can you not see it? Are you wearing the sunglasses in your avatar right now?

 

[thePill]

I actually think the GT350 will out perform the Z28 and the version that does it will likely cost less too. I'll be thrilled.

Now that we're past your failed attempts at mind reading, you did use a magazine article as a basis for your argument. That's being inconsistent. How can you not see it? Are you wearing the sunglasses in your avatar right now?

Oh, this isn't an argument, just rubbing their noses in it.

Magazines are inconsistent... how can you not see that? I did not write these articles nor did I drive during the comparisons. Using this method, I can already find an instance where a GTPP ran a slightly faster lap than a 1LE. Using the same Nurburgring method to be exact...

...why is it void when the Mustang wins?

Why is racing in general null and void? Because the Mustang wins and the Camaro doesn't?

Why is a single lap used as gospel and 3 seasons of competitive racing is dismissed? It is nonsense...

When this system crashes, it leaves them absolutely withdrawn. That guy on the Z06/GTR thread is just terrible. Most likely a C5/6/C7 guy too. The Z06 lost... HA!!!! deal with it...

The GT350 is about to roll over the z28... I wish a better representation of their OEM z28 was used in CTSC. This will have to do...

 

[Cmycobrafly]

I actually think the GT350 will out perform the Z28 and the version that does it will likely cost less too. I'll be thrilled.

Now that we're past your failed attempts at mind reading, you did use a magazine article as a basis for your argument. That's being inconsistent. How can you not see it? Are you wearing the sunglasses in your avatar right now?

I think the more than he pill post the more he feels like he is hurting Chevy lol. People will like what they like regardless from a moron on a tech fourm. Just remember them recaro seats where going to save like 100 pounds. The mustangs 3700 pounds is not a base weight even know ford says it is. Because in 2014 they changed the rules or blah blah blah. Or better yet a ecoboost was going to weigh like 3300 pounds! Oh wait let's compare times from the streets of willow lol where the corvette probley was so overpowered for that track it couldn't hook up! That track is very short! Wait for the 2015 lightening lap! Pill will have to swallow his own pill! I love mustangs bit boy some guys get under ur skin! Ford did design the mustang around scca racing pill! Better idea let's start comparing hp from cars from the ratings overseas because it has to be right like the weight EU spec!:doh:

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