GT350 vs. Z/28

[DHG1078]

EDIT: Pill, is there an article you can reference of the Z28 price drop? I don't see it with a quick google search and minimal looking on the GM site. Not doubting you, just want to know where that info is. To me, if true, shows a bit of desperation...like they are caving to the rumors of the 350 being just above 50k. Either that or it's desperation fire sale to beat mustang sales, though they should have expected that...new model and all of course it's gonna sell well, just like when the new camaro comes out I'm sure sales will jump high for them for a while too.
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I haven't heard of a price drop other than from the pill either, but I suspect it to be true now that the Z06 is out. Given the choice between a Z/28 and a Z06, most people will choose the Z06.

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[traxiii]

Is the new Camaro that much smaller than the current car? Is that maybe what he means by physics, that the reduction in size means it will be close to the same weight with all the mandated safety equipment they have to add? Is the reduction in size going to put this thing in a different class than the Mustang, size wise? Can't wait to see the reduction in shoulder room and the back seat, but it might improve driver visibility a little. LOL

 

[Backorder]

I haven't heard of a price drop other than from the pill either, but I suspect it to be true now that the Z06 is out. Given the choice between a Z/28 and a Z06, most people will choose the Z06.

Ahhhhh, good point. That makes a lot of sense as well!


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[DHG1078]

I did a very small amount of google-ing and asked my chevy buddy and can't find anything about a price cut.

Edit: just found a post on camaro5 where GM is offering rebates on certain VIN number camaros for 20% off. Sounds more like a promotion than a price cut like chevy did with the '15 trucks for black friday.

 

[garagelogic]

Why say VIN number? Just say VIN. "number" is already in the acronym. Essentially, when you say VIN number, you are saying Vehicle Identification Number number. It's just like folks who say ATM machine.

Pet peeve. Rant over. Back to your regularly scheduled conversation.

 

[DHG1078]

Why say VIN number? Just say VIN. "number" is already in the acronym. Essentially, when you say VIN number, you are saying Vehicle Identification Number number. It's just like folks who say ATM machine.

Pet peeve. Rant over. Back to your regularly scheduled conversation.

I know and I have that conversation with myself every time I write it lol. It just doesn't sound right in my head without "number" after lol.

 

[Backorder]

Yeah, did a search on autotrader and you can find several at just over 60k lol

Anyone know just how uncomfortable one would be to DD? Not saying I want one, the interior makes me cringe...just curious.

I'm looking forward to the 350 because:

1) not government motors
2) mag ride for DD (as mine would be a DD)
3) FPC
4) I've test driven a regular GT, challenger RT and camaro SS and like the mustang the best as the best all around car, I believe the higher end cars will follow the same trend in comparos whether this faster or not.


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[thePill]

It's funny thePill, all the talk from Ford early on was a 200 lbs. weight reduction, they just didn't specify until after the release that it was the body/structure lost the 200 lbs. not the entire car. The extra mandated safety features, options made standard and IRS brought the curb weight up to the +60 lbs. or so over the S197. All of that and the 2015 structure is what 30% more rigid than the S197. Not bad, all of the new materials and engineering is really showing out on the track!

All great points and I'd like to thank Backorder for the quote. Mark says it won't be heavier, I just can't see Corvette and Mustang missing the mark using state of the art structure techniques and materials. On the other hand, the 6th Gen continues to use a traditional, torque box unibody and people are expecting weight loss. Sure, that 2.3ish inches off the wheelbase will help but, trust me, it won't be as significant as an all aluminum space frame or S550's structure... Unless that is, the Alpha ATS is NOT the donor car. Ford saved a lot of weight in the structure, as I suggested before, I'm betting close to 200lbs.

Now, I've heard only rumors that the 6th Gen has seen a weight gain in every major component area and, just to get an idea, I did some math on the subject. I found this to be accurate as far as drivetrain goes. The ATSV Coupe is rumored to weigh over 3700lbs as is... The structure was kept lightweight and in turn, the ATS's output will remain below 500 because, as I said before, the ATS doesn't look to be a competent HIGH output structure with the small runners. The 6th Gen needs to take on additional structural reinforcements for the output and weight of a V8 (375-400lbs for the Turbo6 vs. 465lb LT1. It will need to add in the reinforcements for a 600+hp/600lbs+ variant AND (this is a big AND), the convertible. The Little Alpha was built without a convertible in mind... That is weight incoming.

Mark and GM as a whole have a pretty shaky track record when it comes to telling the truth. Even from the start... For instance, the magical 7:31 they claimed to have run at the Ring, conveniently right after Ford slipped the 7:39 in. To be completely honest, Chevy still advertises the SS at 3820lbs (might be off an LB or two). Meanwhile, they also advertise the z28 to be 3820lbs and, they claim it is 100lbs lighter than the 3820lbs SS... Wait... Is that right???

No, it is very much incorrect.... Basically, Chevy is cookin' the books in their favor. They want both a 3820lbs SS and a 3820lbs z28... Both in which are incorrect. The SS manual now weighs over 3920lbs... Soooooooooooooo...

So what Mark? If it's not going to be heavier, what number are you using? Technically, 3919lbs isn't heavier. Are they going to strip it? I gathered that they are trying to move it up market like the ZL1. All I know is, the ATS coupe is not lightweight by any means. In fact, it appears that the Eco6 ATS and GTPP will be almost the same weight. Now, that same ATS needs reinforcement galore. I'm talking V8 and convertible support AND, they will likely need to support a nearly 600lbs engine w/SC and a 7-8 speed Auto (those are heavy). As I said before, the 2007 Mustang gained 125lbs just to support the GT500's extra weight and power.

Now, Hippo Jr. will gain that weight over the ATS. This would also include the support for any convertibles. Big gains to be had and I doubt it will be saved elsewhere.

Anywho... back to the MSRP bust, it was announced a few days ago. This seems to only affect the z28 and ZL1. Those are special edition cars and the z28s are losing value...the same year it was released. I'm sorry, this isn't an Xmas present or a fire sale... It's a "whoops, were not selling these all-star, drivers car of the year" cars. Now they are losing their asses on a stupid investment. Is it good for competition? Yeah, it would have been, if they could legally compete in the area the car was built for... You dumb asses. Ford never slashed prices on any of the special edition Mustang's. Usually, some are marked up from what I seen and some are lucky enough to get one at invoice. Chevy is losing money on every z28 and zl1 they sell.

I tried like hell to warn those Camaro enthusiast before the z28 was released. I warned about the legality of the thing and I warned about the oil temps. I was as honest and direct as possible. I only went on the offensive when a Camaro5 member came over to make himself look less than intelligent. Now, with the MSRP. I initially had it figured between $65,000 but, I ended with a $67,000 MSRP. What this is telling me is, the actual INVOICE cost is around $60,000 and, get this, those bastards were asking $77,000. I though my $67,000 figure was a little too high but, I figured in a $3000 for profit (average was between $1000-3000 per vehicle). Chevy has literally robbed it's Camaro enthusiast by some $15,000. What a pathetic shame of a manufacture. I personally love it though... Those fools bought the most expensive and the least useable Pony car of all time.

But is it capable???? Well... We can't race it so, we can never really tell. The z28, along with all other 5th Gen Camaro's blow at the strip. They are fun up to the 11's, then they say it gets frustrating. Ask Terry (driver in the video) how good a 5th Gen Camaro is at Road racing... Go ahead, I want to hear from you afterwards. Hell, even GM admitted in that very same interview that the Zeta was garbage. I assume that extends to every aspect of the vehicle, including all forms of racing. With oil temps being dangerously high, I'm not sure it would be a nice ride after its all said and done. Most don't realize this but, even if the z28 could race, it could be out of fuel before the last lap in SCCA Heat. I got around 6mpg's in a Coyote, about 4mgp's in a Z06. IF Chevy removed their heads from asses during big bad race car research and development, they would have noticed running out of fuel.

...and now...

As if Chevy intended Ford to bring back the GT350 just to knock the z28 off. It was in fact the '66 GT350 that dominated the original z28. The original z28 was made a fool of during its maiden season. Nobody ever speaks of the z's first year... They only want to talk about the wins in 68-69 because Chevy was permitted to outsource the z28. In other words, it had zero balls from the factory and needed to pretty much cheat to compete. They were allowed equipment and upgrades unheard of at the time in the series. Not much has changed since 1969.



End...

 

[02gtnh]

Where does chevy list the ss at 3820lbs. I've seen them listed over 3900lbs.

 

[thePill]

Where does chevy list the ss at 3820lbs. I've seen them listed over 3900lbs.

Where?

Edit: I found a source and I assume it's manufacture backed. You are correct, according to Chevy, the Base SS manual weighs 3935lbs.

Woo hoo!!! Man that's a fatta meata balla!!!

I will look later but, I believe 2014 was the first year they actually showed an increase. 115lbs and I'm betting some 60-80lbs was convertible reinforcement in 2011... maybe more...

I found a 2013 listed at 3860lbs, I am almost convinced they are just adding that weight on a little at a time. Improvements made in 2011 and '12 are just now being reported.

By the time the 6th Gen comes out, the 2015 (and maybe '16 if we don't see a more finished product soon) could weigh more... By the time the 6th Gen comes out, the 5th Gen will weigh nearly 4000lbs anyway. You may very well see a lighter Camaro for model year 2017... A lighter Camaro yes, a lightweight Camaro? Probably not...

When C5 guys read "a lighter Camaro" most are hung up on the initial 3820lbs the 2010 weighed. You seen this when the mention of a z28 that weighed 100lbs less than an SS. They said "Oh wow, 3720lbs isn't bad... Then pow!!!! A z28 came out between 3840 and 3870lbs.

This slight misdirection by GM may be the strategy here.

The 6th Gen will be very, very fortunate if it manages to even match the current 3935lbs.

Edit: Thanks for bringing the weight up, it got me looking. I found this...

2011: 3849lbs
2013: 3860lbs
2014: 3935lbs

First thing noticed, after the vert reinforcements were added, GM reported only about a 19lbs gain. 11lbs for the FE4 suspension and brakes and a mysterious 75lbs added in '14 for a refresh (which would force a curb weight re-cert. first, I believe the 5th Gen only had two official curbs. The '10 and '14... The only ones that require certs...

I have no idea why the car is gaining weight randomly. Here is what I think happened... It takes a few years after upgrades to get a recert on curb. I can only assume that weight was Vert/zl1 support and FE4 and brakes. 115lbs sounds about right...

 

[thePill]

It's also worth mentioning, Chevy is currently a major Ad space holder at Motor Trend. In fact, the very same truck Mark talks about in the z28 article is the same truck Motor Trend advertises on the site. It had two ad spaces on a single page once I clicked the link.

I could really give a sh!t what Mark's shameless self promotion says, it's a commercial...

 

[FATTBoss]

http://www.motorsport.com/lemans/ne...-sports-car-race-it-at-le-mans-in-2016-459802

Could this be our GT350R on a world stage??? They mention Multimatic is developing the new racer.

 

[traxiii]

http://www.motorsport.com/lemans/ne...-sports-car-race-it-at-le-mans-in-2016-459802

Could this be our GT350R on a world stage??? They mention Multimatic is developing the new racer.

The car they are talking about in the article is not the Shelby GT350R Mustang which will run in the Continental Tire Grand Sport and maybe IMSA/TUSC in GT-Daytona, which Multimatic is building. I'm hoping the eventually build a GT3 (IMSO/TUSC GT-Daytona is going to full GT3 specs in 2016) version in addition to the SCCA Pirelli WC GTS spec cars.

The article seems to be mixing things up a bit, or maybe I am. I heard that Ganassi was working with someone on a new Prototype car to compete in IMSA/TUSC Prototype and LeMans LMP2 Classes with EB3.5L power. I do not think this will be the Ford GT replacement, as the Prototype cars are not very easily streetable with all the add-on aero parts, wings, rudders, dive planes and such. It would make a Lamborgini Countach look like a Model T.

There has been a lot of talk of a new Ford GT replacement for the street, a Supercar in the vain of the Ford GT, which would fit into GT-LM class like the Corvette in both IMSA/TUSC and at LeMans, just in time for the 50th anniversary of the GT40 win at LeMans.

I am can't remember who is said to be working on this project, and so far no prototypes or test vehicles have been spotted in the wild, no pictures yet published. It sounds like we will know in a couple weeks though. I'm hoping this car comes with a tweaked version of the Voodoo engine, just cause I love N/A screaming V8s.

 

[thePill]

I have a feeling the GT350 will be shoulder to shoulder with the C7 Vette. That is exactly where the Mustang needs to be. This will begin to create a unique challenge for Chevrolet. My first concern is where the GT350 class. Or in better terms, where are they putting it?

(Cont...)

 

[Brent302]

I have a feeling the GT350 will be shoulder to shoulder with the C7 Vette. That is exactly where the Mustang needs to be. This will begin to create a unique challenge for Chevrolet. My first concern is where the GT350 class. Or in better terms, where are they putting it?

(Cont...)

I highly doubt it. Yes the GT350 will be a great vehicle but its no C7. The C7s are outperforming GTRs on road courses. By your assumption you're saying the GT350 will beat a GTR..I don't see it. The GT350 will be comparable to a 1LE and Z/28.

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