OP
OP
thePill
Camaro5's Most Wanted
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2012
- Threads
- 37
- Messages
- 6,561
- Reaction score
- 699
- Location
- Pittsburgh
- Vehicle(s)
- S550
- Thread starter
- #466
@Track
Yeah, I agree about the roll bar not being as strong, the line is literally drawn between a 6 point roll bar and an 8 point roll cage. I have no idea how many points the ZL1 had, it was a decent cage... I'm trying to illustrate the reporters observation that there was a roll bar installed during the Milford runs. He might not even know the differance, he sees the roll over bar, which a cage has one as well. However, the car used in the press release was;
a.) Adverised as the Nurbugring car and, as many believed, the actual pictures were at the Ring.
b.) The silver z28 in those photos appeared as if it had no roll-over bar as at all.
The z28 that was shown in the press release photos were released with that intention. To appear as if the z28 was lapping Nurburgring uncaged and off the shelf. This bothers me...
Your also correct about platforms not created equally. As I mentioned before, older cars flex a great deal, new cars are better with chassis flex. There is no car immune to this and older cars never experienced the shear amount of G forces the z28 is recording. Also, the speeds that these laps are laid down, previous generation Camaro's have rarely seen such speeds. I agree the 5th Gen is more rigid, we can simply look to Motorsports to confirm both S197 and 5th Gen need the extra torsional rigidity to remain consistent.
I think my point here isn't getting through. I don't think people understand the threshold Nurburgring throws down for each car. Both platforms have reached the limits at Nurburgring, somewhere under the 8 minute mark.
Here is a perfect example, the 2013 GT500... The GT500 can raise the inside rear tire during extreme loads while cornering. That inside tire lift ultimately limits any progression at Nurburgring, that plateau was easily eliminated with the use of a roll bar/roll cage. The Black w/Grabber stripes that lapped the Ring in June '11 had a roll bar (pics availible online). The GT500's plateau is somewhere between 7:50-8:00 with no cage, we will never know though until an uncaged GT500 runs. The 7:39 run SID timed wasn't a gain of 20 seconds, it was a time posted by a completely different car. I was the first person that had a ballpark time of the GT500's testing there. The Red GT500 had a competition cage in it, the Black one I mentioned had a simple roll bar in it...
The Red GT500 ran a 7:34-35 (can't remember) and the Black one ran a 7:42-43... The gains were the result of the Red GT500's equipment, amplified due to the additional structural support. It was also more consistent..
This is nearly impossible to explain but, I'm trying. Once the cage goes in, just from the additional 50-100lbs, the ENTIRE performance support systems need adjusted, recalibrated, re-everything. You don't just add a cage, especially when your vehicle is supposedly capable of a 7:25-7:35 at Nurburgring. Everything would evolve from the OEM specifications.
I still think a 1:36 at Barber is just a tad too slow for a 500hp car there. I know why the GT-R and 911 were slow, the wet track and cold weather was not helping. If the track was dry and temperatures were like the z28's 62 degree runs, I can see them in the 1:35 range easy. If the conditions were the same, the article would have been different as well as the vibe. Another thing I didn't like, they took 6psi out of the tires to produce a faster time. Initially, the z28 ran a 1:37.28... That is scary for an $80,000 car. There will be a violent recoil the first time another magazine doesn't take air out of the tires and then it can't manage what it just did.
It's a setup for bad things to occur. Next time, the track might not be wet, it might not be cold... the journalist might not keep taking air out of the tire until the car does what they said it could do...
Just a few things to consider Trackaholic, and thanks for the articulate post. Lots of things to think about...
Yeah, I agree about the roll bar not being as strong, the line is literally drawn between a 6 point roll bar and an 8 point roll cage. I have no idea how many points the ZL1 had, it was a decent cage... I'm trying to illustrate the reporters observation that there was a roll bar installed during the Milford runs. He might not even know the differance, he sees the roll over bar, which a cage has one as well. However, the car used in the press release was;
a.) Adverised as the Nurbugring car and, as many believed, the actual pictures were at the Ring.
b.) The silver z28 in those photos appeared as if it had no roll-over bar as at all.
The z28 that was shown in the press release photos were released with that intention. To appear as if the z28 was lapping Nurburgring uncaged and off the shelf. This bothers me...
Your also correct about platforms not created equally. As I mentioned before, older cars flex a great deal, new cars are better with chassis flex. There is no car immune to this and older cars never experienced the shear amount of G forces the z28 is recording. Also, the speeds that these laps are laid down, previous generation Camaro's have rarely seen such speeds. I agree the 5th Gen is more rigid, we can simply look to Motorsports to confirm both S197 and 5th Gen need the extra torsional rigidity to remain consistent.
I think my point here isn't getting through. I don't think people understand the threshold Nurburgring throws down for each car. Both platforms have reached the limits at Nurburgring, somewhere under the 8 minute mark.
Here is a perfect example, the 2013 GT500... The GT500 can raise the inside rear tire during extreme loads while cornering. That inside tire lift ultimately limits any progression at Nurburgring, that plateau was easily eliminated with the use of a roll bar/roll cage. The Black w/Grabber stripes that lapped the Ring in June '11 had a roll bar (pics availible online). The GT500's plateau is somewhere between 7:50-8:00 with no cage, we will never know though until an uncaged GT500 runs. The 7:39 run SID timed wasn't a gain of 20 seconds, it was a time posted by a completely different car. I was the first person that had a ballpark time of the GT500's testing there. The Red GT500 had a competition cage in it, the Black one I mentioned had a simple roll bar in it...
The Red GT500 ran a 7:34-35 (can't remember) and the Black one ran a 7:42-43... The gains were the result of the Red GT500's equipment, amplified due to the additional structural support. It was also more consistent..
This is nearly impossible to explain but, I'm trying. Once the cage goes in, just from the additional 50-100lbs, the ENTIRE performance support systems need adjusted, recalibrated, re-everything. You don't just add a cage, especially when your vehicle is supposedly capable of a 7:25-7:35 at Nurburgring. Everything would evolve from the OEM specifications.
I still think a 1:36 at Barber is just a tad too slow for a 500hp car there. I know why the GT-R and 911 were slow, the wet track and cold weather was not helping. If the track was dry and temperatures were like the z28's 62 degree runs, I can see them in the 1:35 range easy. If the conditions were the same, the article would have been different as well as the vibe. Another thing I didn't like, they took 6psi out of the tires to produce a faster time. Initially, the z28 ran a 1:37.28... That is scary for an $80,000 car. There will be a violent recoil the first time another magazine doesn't take air out of the tires and then it can't manage what it just did.
It's a setup for bad things to occur. Next time, the track might not be wet, it might not be cold... the journalist might not keep taking air out of the tire until the car does what they said it could do...
Just a few things to consider Trackaholic, and thanks for the articulate post. Lots of things to think about...
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