GT350 vs. Z/28

[Stuntman]

The MARC VDS car in FIA GT3 was a FR500GT3. It was the most extensively modified S197 approved for Motorsport (Not counting the Trans Am GT500's in South America). Not sure if it had a tube frame, the body was an modified OEM shell. It did have IRS, a 5.3 and an inboard jack system if I remember right. The Mustang in Grand Am GT called a GT.R was a FR500GT. It had major modifications but still not to the degree that the GS.R and Z/28.R does in GS. The Mustang FR500GT4 was near OEM and won a GT4 Championship in 2008 (FIA). The Mustang FR500C was the Grand Am GS car, also near OEM.

After 3 Major Championships and a Triple Crown, BMW complained about the FR500, and rightfully so. They were following the rules while Ford was not... In turn, the Boss 302 program was started.

I give the Camaro a lot of sh!t, and just as BMW's complaints, it is justified. The Camaro is actually on the same path as the Mustang and FR500. They are just a decade behind. The 2011 Camaro SSX is the same broadcast as the 40th Anniversary Mustang GTR was. "We are returning to competition!!!"

However, it will take 10 years to expedite that evolution, even longer without any Championships or class domination. Unless they dump loads of money into the Motorsport program right now, this change will have to happen over time. They just don't have the money to offer what Ford, BMW, Porsche, Nissan and Aston do... A near OEM experience.

Being a slave to displacement can be blamed on the pushrod V8. With the Z06 retreating from Motorsport, and the 1LE calling it quits, this could spell trouble down the road. Once Chevy invested $820 million into a pushrod engine, I foreseen this doom.

@FATTBoss,

I know it is frustrating and it undermines the class, but it is a necessary step for the Camaro. Based on it performance and past season results, I don't see the Camaro program getting much attention. I would have loved to admit the Camaro was moving in the right direction...

...although, with the decision to re

Who campaigned the FR500GT in GrandAm GT?

Sponsored

 

[thePill]

Who campaigned the FR500GT in GrandAm GT?

Ford and I believe Multimatic. Black Forest was the last Mustang GT.R in GT.

 

[Stuntman]

Ford and I believe Multimatic. Black Forest was the last Mustang GT.R in GT.

I'm pretty sure the FR500GT never raced in Grand-Am GT and the Mustangs campaigned by Black forest and Rick Ware Racing were all tube frame racecars with composite bodies and sequential transmissions (Prep-2 just like the camaro and previously Pontiac GTO the GXP.Rs who ran GT around that time)

 

[thePill]

I'm pretty sure the FR500GT never raced in Grand-Am GT and the Mustangs campaigned by Black forest and Rick Ware Racing were all tube frame racecars with composite bodies and sequential transmissions (Prep-2 just like the camaro and previously Pontiac GTO the GXP.Rs who ran GT around that time)

That is incorrect... It was indeed TPN/Black Forest that won the 2005 Grand Am GT Championship. I never really reference this Championship due to the nature of the vehicle. They returned again in 2007 and again in 2010. Initially, Black Forest used the FR500GT, it does not have a tube frame. The 2010 car was built by Crawford, it may of had a tube frame. http://www.stangtv.com/news/mustang-to-return-to-grand-am-rolex-gt-racing/

The 2015 GT350 will be the first legitimate, near OEM GT car since 1965.

 

[Stuntman]

That is incorrect... It was indeed TPN/Black Forest that won the 2005 Grand Am GT Championship. I never really reference this Championship due to the nature of the vehicle. They returned again in 2007 and again in 2010. Initially, Black Forest used the FR500GT, it does not have a tube frame. The 2010 car was built by Crawford, it may of had a tube frame. http://www.stangtv.com/news/mustang-to-return-to-grand-am-rolex-gt-racing/

The 2015 GT350 will be the first legitimate, near OEM GT car since 1965.

I thought Craig Stanton and TRG won the 2005 GT Championship in a Porsche

Are you confusing GS with GT? (since Multimatic won the 2005 GS Championship in the FR500C with Dave Empringham).

The 2007 Crawford-built TPN/BlackForest car was a tubeframe racecar with composite body and a sequential transmission. I'm still pretty sure the FR500GT never ran in Rolex GT.

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/articles/blackforest-motorsports-takes-on-gt-in-2007-741.shtml

 

[thePill]

I thought Craig Stanton and TRG won the 2005 GT Championship in a Porsche

Are you confusing GS with GT? (since Multimatic won the 2005 GS Championship in the FR500C with Dave Empringham).

The 2007 Crawford-built TPN/BlackForest car was a tubeframe racecar with composite body and a sequential transmission. I'm still pretty sure the FR500GT never ran in Rolex GT.

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/articles/blackforest-motorsports-takes-on-gt-in-2007-741.shtml

In the article, Black Forest won a 2005 Championship. The article states it was the return of the Mustang GTR to GT. Upon its return, there was some internal debate on whether or not to use a GTR or a modified C, it's possible a tube frame was used. The MGTR was originally built for Grand Am GT, the Crawford car was completely 3rd party. It also says neither was successful so that Championship was probably a GS. Although, Multimatic and. Black Forest cannot win the same title in the same season.

All this leads back to the Camaro not fitting in...and those desperate attempts by Camaro fans to prove otherwise. The FR500GT had quite a bit of modification to run the class. It didn't belong in GT even if those rules hadn't been implemented yet.

Nor does the Camaro belong in GT, GS, GT3 or T1. It only fit in at the T2 level, where it had its ass handed to it by some seven Mustang GTs. The 1LE was the only factory supported Camaro. While Team Camaro loves to referance the Boss, they sure didn't put up a fight to have it class with it. They made the a calculated decision to sanction the 1LE against the GT....

...a wise decision... They knew damn well they didn't have anything suitable to challenge the Boss, or the Mustang for that matter.

You shouldn't need to dig this hard to make the Camaro appear legitiment. As I said before, the Z/28.R and GS.R have received HEAVY modifications to compete. It is the only vehicle in the class that built. If it is just gonna be like this, Ford needs to bring back a GTR... Even the GTR didn't have Carbon Fiber panels. The FR500 GT3 did... None of those FR500's had sequential gear boxes. The catalog FR500GT was basically a Mustang Challenge car (FR500) with an OEM body, Tremec and 5.0 Cammer.

Now, back to the main topic: The Z/28.R is NOT a z28 at all. It's hardly even Camaro... This will make an easy target for the SVT GT350, especially once Ford Racing is envolved.

 

[thePill]

I'll make this statement to put this Vs. into perspective.

The S197 Mustang has as many Championships as the 5th Gen Camaro has wins.

Read it and weep...

 

[Stuntman]

In the article, Black Forest won a 2005 Championship. The article states it was the return of the Mustang GTR to GT. Upon its return, there was some internal debate on whether or not to use a GTR or a modified C, it's possible a tube frame was used. The MGTR was originally built for Grand Am GT, the Crawford car was completely 3rd party. It also says neither was successful so that Championship was probably a GS. Although, Multimatic and. Black Forest cannot win the same title in the same season.

All this leads back to the Camaro not fitting in...and those desperate attempts by Camaro fans to prove otherwise. The FR500GT had quite a bit of modification to run the class. It didn't belong in GT even if those rules hadn't been implemented yet.

Nor does the Camaro belong in GT, GS, GT3 or T1. It only fit in at the T2 level, where it had its ass handed to it by some seven Mustang GTs. The 1LE was the only factory supported Camaro. While Team Camaro loves to referance the Boss, they sure didn't put up a fight to have it class with it. They made the a calculated decision to sanction the 1LE against the GT....

...a wise decision... They knew damn well they didn't have anything suitable to challenge the Boss, or the Mustang for that matter.

You shouldn't need to dig this hard to make the Camaro appear legitiment. As I said before, the Z/28.R and GS.R have received HEAVY modifications to compete. It is the only vehicle in the class that built. If it is just gonna be like this, Ford needs to bring back a GTR... Even the GTR didn't have Carbon Fiber panels. The FR500 GT3 did... None of those FR500's had sequential gear boxes. The catalog FR500GT was basically a Mustang Challenge car (FR500) with an OEM body, Tremec and 5.0 Cammer.

Now, back to the main topic: The Z/28.R is NOT a z28 at all. It's hardly even Camaro... This will make an easy target for the SVT GT350, especially once Ford Racing is envolved.

Blackforest won a couple races in GS which helped to contribute to Ford winning the GS manufacturers championship while Multimatic won the driver and team championship. BF didn't win a championship in 2005.

There was no discussion in that article of the "GTR" (which I gather was just a concept car in 2004 that demonstrated the S197 will compete in racing). Blackforest went with a Crawford tube frame Prep-2 car since they didn't feel the heavy unibody FR500GT would be competitive as a Prep-1 car in GT. While they went with the tube-frame Crawford car, they were not competitive despite 1 podium in 2007.

The FR500GT had carbon fenders, hood, etc.. and was right in line with other Prep-1 cars at the time, it just was too heavy and had a ton of power and couldn't really compete with the class at the time.

Your statement that the Z28.R in GS being as much of a racecar as Blackforest's tube-frame, composite-bodied, sequential GT car is a bit of a stretch.

The GS Z28R is as much of a GS classed car as any other, except its carbon doors, hood, rear decklid, 6-piston front and 4-piston rear race calipers (which I think are not going to be allowed for the next race), lexan windows and twin brake master cylinders (which I dont think will be in the car at the next race).

0.02

 

[thePill]

I think your missing the point, Ford, Ford Racing and Team Mustang developed the Mustang FR500GT specifically FOR Grand Am GT. There is no way around that... It is what it is. The team decided it needed more modifications to be competitive.

Sound familiar? Same situation the 5th Gen is in on the GS level. It's a wash...

The 5th Gen Camaro needs far too many upgrades to be classed as it is. If the made an effort to eventually improve on that, good on them. However, they are not making progress. They are moving backwards.

This is an awful lot of kicking and screaming just to justify the Camaro presence don't cha' think? Regardless of what they try and market to you, the Camaro was not made to race.

 

[FATTBoss]

I think anything beyond the Grand Am/IMSA GS class is really just a matter of budget, not car. I remember the GXP and GTO, and then slapping a Camaro body on the same chassis when Pontiac was tanked. To me that ain't a Camaro, or a GTO or a GXP. Tube frame race cars are not representative of the street counterpart as too many things are changed and/or allowed.

GS is a truer representation of the real car, and in that respect the Camaro has been less than successful. All of my comments should be read with only GS in mind, as that is the only series I really follow since the cars are closest to what I can buy and drive.

The rest of it just gets far too confusing too quick for me.

(Side note: My buddy that races the Boss 302R has agreed to let me take a lap or two in it so I can see what that Tremec feels like compared to my street Boss and Getrag. I'm positively stoked!)

 

[thePill]

I posted the link, it did indeed say Black Forest won the title. Your argument was lost long ago. The Z/28.R IS NO WHERE NEAR OEM. All of your squirming from that statement to this is merely ass covering your incorrect assumption.

The Z/28.R and the entire 5th Gen lineup DO NOT belong in an OEM class. Sorry... That's that...

You were sure of a lot of things until everything was laid out. If Black Forest never ran a GT in GT, then how the hell would they know if it wasn't competitive? Ford themselves sanctioned the FR500GT in Grand Am GT, that is the only reason a car was needed between the FR500S and FR500GT4. The 500S and 500GT were seam welded, OEM shells. It was most likely change because it wasn't competitive, in turn, a 3rd party built to spec. Sound familiar? Yes, the 5th Gen also needed massive upgrades to compete.

All this worry and dispute just to make Camaro5 feel better. You were lied to bud, sorry.

It is amusing, I do love the foot stomping and pouting. Both the GS.R and Z/28.R are spec'd out. It's hilarious you are trying to avoid that fact with never ending nonsense.

I'll say this again so it burns... The S197 has just as many Championships as the 5th Gen Camaro has GS wins. LOL!!!

As Boss said above, I glance at GT every once in a while. Those Mustangs are not Ford's... Just as that Z/28.R is not a Chevy. It's a move backwards, Chevy is backwards to be honest.

 

[Sabre]

I posted the link, it did indeed say Black Forest won the title. Your argument was lost long ago. The Z/28.R IS NO WHERE NEAR OEM. All of your squirming from that statement to this is merely ass covering your incorrect assumption.

The Z/28.R and the entire 5th Gen lineup DO NOT belong in an OEM class. Sorry... That's that...

You were sure of a lot of things until everything was laid out. If Black Forest never ran a GT in GT, then how the hell would they know if it wasn't competitive? Ford themselves sanctioned the FR500GT in Grand Am GT, that is the only reason a car was needed between the FR500S and FR500GT4. The 500S and 500GT were seam welded, OEM shells. It was most likely change because it wasn't competitive, in turn, a 3rd party built to spec. Sound familiar? Yes, the 5th Gen also needed massive upgrades to compete.

All this worry and dispute just to make Camaro5 feel better. You were lied to bud, sorry.

It is amusing, I do love the foot stomping and pouting. Both the GS.R and Z/28.R are spec'd out. It's hilarious you are trying to avoid that fact with never ending nonsense.

I'll say this again so it burns... The S197 has just as many Championships as the 5th Gen Camaro has GS wins. LOL!!!

As Boss said above, I glance at GT every once in a while. Those Mustangs are not Ford's... Just as that Z/28.R is not a Chevy. It's a move backwards, Chevy is backwards to be honest.

Actually....the article you linked to doesn't say they won the 2005 Championship...it says they placed 5th in points.

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]"Their first season of taking on the other Mustang team plus the power of the BMW and Porsche teams, they notched fifth in the title chase, losing out to Multimatic's Mustang aiding Ford's manufacturers' championship that year."
[/FONT]

 

[Stuntman]

I posted the link, it did indeed say Black Forest won the title. Your argument was lost long ago. The Z/28.R IS NO WHERE NEAR OEM. All of your squirming from that statement to this is merely ass covering your incorrect assumption.

The Z/28.R and the entire 5th Gen lineup DO NOT belong in an OEM class. Sorry... That's that...

You were sure of a lot of things until everything was laid out. If Black Forest never ran a GT in GT, then how the hell would they know if it wasn't competitive? Ford themselves sanctioned the FR500GT in Grand Am GT, that is the only reason a car was needed between the FR500S and FR500GT4. The 500S and 500GT were seam welded, OEM shells. It was most likely change because it wasn't competitive, in turn, a 3rd party built to spec. Sound familiar? Yes, the 5th Gen also needed massive upgrades to compete.

All this worry and dispute just to make Camaro5 feel better. You were lied to bud, sorry.

It is amusing, I do love the foot stomping and pouting. Both the GS.R and Z/28.R are spec'd out. It's hilarious you are trying to avoid that fact with never ending nonsense.

I'll say this again so it burns... The S197 has just as many Championships as the 5th Gen Camaro has GS wins. LOL!!!

As Boss said above, I glance at GT every once in a while. Those Mustangs are not Ford's... Just as that Z/28.R is not a Chevy. It's a move backwards, Chevy is backwards to be honest.

Your reading comprehension must be lacking probably due to your ignorance and arrogance. I agree that the carbon panels of the camaros shouldn't be allowed in GS and the few other things that I listed that were on the car probably will not continue to stay on them, however to say the GSR and Z28R are as built as the tube frame Prep3 Mustangs in GT is a bit of a stretch. The GS camaros are pretty much as a whole within the rules for GS. Try looking at the rulebook.

If you look at the GS BOSS302R: it does not have an OEM transmission. The FR500C never had an oem transmission or engine. The 5.0L "cammer" was a built motor for DPs and didn't have much in common with the oem 4.6L -thats a much further departure than the GSR or Z28R in my book, both of which use oem transmissions and engines. Well at one time two different transmissions with two different gear ratios were allowed. I can't remember if both were oem and of different model years or what the story was.

Are you saying the FR500GT was inbetween the 500S and 500GT4 models?

I also think the FR500S (with an oem 4.6) was a bit slower than the FR500C and I believe both were stitch welded.

I'm actually a Ford fan, however you're posting misinformation and incorrect comments on both sides of the fence.

 

[thePill]

Your reading comprehension must be lacking probably due to your ignorance and arrogance. I agree that the carbon panels of the camaros shouldn't be allowed in GS and the few other things that I listed that were on the car probably will not continue to stay on them, however to say the GSR and Z28R are as built as the tube frame Prep3 Mustangs in GT is a bit of a stretch. The GS camaros are pretty much as a whole within the rules for GS. Try looking at the rulebook.

If you look at the GS BOSS302R: it does not have an OEM transmission. The FR500C never had an oem transmission or engine. The 5.0L "cammer" was a built motor for DPs and didn't have much in common with the oem 4.6L -thats a much further departure than the GSR or Z28R in my book, both of which use oem transmissions and engines. Well at one time two different transmissions with two different gear ratios were allowed. I can't remember if both were oem and of different model years or what the story was.

Are you saying the FR500GT was inbetween the 500S and 500GT4 models?

I also think the FR500S (with an oem 4.6) was a bit slower than the FR500C and I believe both were stitch welded.

I'm actually a Ford fan, however you're posting misinformation and incorrect comments on both sides of the fence.

Does my reading comprehension or past Mustangs change the fact that the Camaro sucks right now? Instead of me being led down an endless path of ass covering, why not confront the original debate... cause you are avoiding it at all cost.

The Z/28.R has less in common with the 2014 z28 than the GS.R did with the SS. We can go down memory lane all we want, most of this conversation is you ass covering for your bone head comment.

The Boss, M3, 997, Aston and 350Z are all near OEM. That was my message, you brought all this other stuff up just to cover your ass. I don't have the time to double check all your ass covering, sorry bud, your just not that important. I will say, you do have a familiar Camaro5 whine. You guys gettin' desperate?

 

[thePill]

I created a thread in General so this FR500/Ass covering can continue.

You can continue your lesson on the FR500 there. I am eager to see what else I missed from the non-OEM era of the S197.

Sponsored