GT350 vs. Z/28

[w3rkn]

Thank you all for the clarification.

Regarding your point above, this could be viewed in a couple ways.

On the one hand, you could say that there might be a compromise because you are trying to satisfy two different missions with a single design.

However, is the mission between the ATS and Camaro really that different? They are both intended to be relatively small, sporty cars, RWD, longitudinally mounted engines, capable of handling high power. While it is true that the Caddy is likely to be more luxurious, that doesn't really affect its platform.

So, based on that, one could argue that sharing the platform (vastly different than re-badging BTW) is actually a benefit because the higher volume would allow better technologies to be used.

You see this from GM in several areas, from the engine sharing between the Camaro and Corvette, to the magnetic ride control, to the carbon ceramic brakes on the Z28. Even the current Camaro, which is on a non-ideal platform, has been able to leverage the benefits of that platform (such as the IRS) into a car that beats the crap out of the Mustang on a track (I'm talking about the 1LE). Of course the standard SS with the same platform has always been a bit of a pig, so the details matter greatly as well.

The Mustang is finally coming into its own with the S550, but the question remains - how much engineering and technology was eliminated from the car due to budget/schedule constraints?

I prefer the Mustang over the Camaro, but I think a case can be made for both methods of car design.

-T

One question:
Do you think Cadillac engineers where thinking of 700hp engines when they designed that chassis...?


Magnetic ride control, Carbon ceramic brakes, etc.. are all parts bin stuff & have zero to do with the integrity or competency of a chassis.

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[thePill]

The only real advantage of a shared platform is cost. Its very possible money saved on R&D and production will find its way back into the vehicle at some point but, that money invested is usually band aid money. The 5th Gen is a perfect example of that... The S550 platform was developed specifically for Mustang with no engineering limitations. At a $30,000 starting point, its about time to develop a specific chassis for the vehicle, especially a sports coupe. There are zero engineering advantages when developing a new car, other than cost reduction. This was previously acceptable however, we are paying nearly $40,000 for a sports coupe and, performance in these cars need specific structural requirements. I don't care how good the donor platform was or how sure Camaro fans are that this thought process is incorrect. If a solid axle was deemed "old technology" then a shared platform is old school engineering. I can't really see the excitement over a traditional unibody that has been used since the early '70's.

Sharing a platform is unfortunate, its 2014 for cryin' out loud, upgrade already... Another slice of "oh crap" is the projected MSRP. The Zeta was a cost effective platform, heavy, but cheap to build. Now, the 6th Gen is set to adopt a Caddy chassis. The cost could increase about the same as the S550, and knowing GM, probably more than 10%. An entry level V8 will be very close to $40,000. To me, that's not gonna cut it... They will be at an MSRP disadvantage for the remainder of the Camaro's life. They could eliminate some standard equipment that comes with the Mustang but risk looking limp to the masses....

There arr a lot of fingers being crossed for a lighter Camaro. I highly doubt that will be the case. The C7 used an all new, all aluminum, hydroformed space frame chassis that was specifically made for the C7... They ended up gaining 99lbs (199lbs w/Z51). The Mustang uses an all new, state of the art unibody that utilizes a combination of UHSS, Boron, advanced metal shaping techniques and construction methods, specifically designed for the Mustang... They gained 20-87lbs across the board.

I'm sorry fella's, the probability of a Camaro losing weight when the vehicles above did not are likely ZERO. Even with lightweight materials and advanced techniques, the industry leading sports car and sports coupe could not keep weight down. I admit, the weight gain was from extra content, content the Camaro WILL adopt.

Most people foolishly apply the CTS's weight savings from '14 to '15 to the 5th Gens current weight of 3920lbs. The weight loss experienced by the 2015 CTS will not translate to the Camaro. Even if it did, the TT V6 CTS weighs 3976lbs, that's the realistic window we are looking at. Taking on convertible and high horsepower variations will add weight, just as it did with the S550. Doubling the number of airbags, the LT1 and Tremec combo is worth 100lbs and the suspension/brakes will add at least 50 to that. Standard 19's are also heavier.

Where do they take the weight from? Looking at the spy pics, one thing is certain... The wheelbase... Its not small, not ATS small at least (which isn't small at all). In fact, it looks very much like the 112-113 5th Gen wheelbase compared to the 112 inch Impala. Coming from a 115 inch wheelbase down to 112 is savings but,that's one of the only places to save big. Ford needed to eliminate the front torque boxes and the rear frame section to make the S550 BiW lighter than the S197's... Only to load 'em up later. Is the S550 lighter than the S197 once the new garbage is removed? Oh yeah, that was clear the day we seen the structure. Will the Camaro? Most likely it will...

Just don't expect Chevy to take a large, full size platform and make it a world class, light weight sports coupe. If the Mustang or Corvette would have at least lost a single pound, I'd say there may be hope. I just can't see any car losing any weight without an advanced Unibody/Space frame. The Alpha is an old unibody design, period. We can be proactive an assume the C7's 190lbs gain will partially translate to the Camaro. All the equipment listed in that weight gain category is incoming for the 6th Gen. The only help would be the IRS systems, the Mustang didn't have one so that weight gain is only experienced by the Mustang (I'm betting around 60lbs). Don't get it twisted, the CTS's 5 link is big and heavy as well, most are steel stampings to keep weight distribution close to 50/50.

 

[w3rkn]

To be fair... I am only here because of the s550's engineering. Not because it is a Mustang..

I don't see Chevy designing a Camaro off the Corvette's platform, or under it's own design. Therefore, it is not a focused chassis.


/end thread <--- IMO



for the dERP'ers..
Ford can always add moAr horsepower..
Ford can always add moAr brakes...
Ford can always add moAr carbon fiber..
Ford can always add moAr...

Because they engineered a chassis to do motorsports & so even EcoBoost buyers benefit. It's foundation is purposeful.

 

[thePill]

To be fair... I am only here because of the s550's engineering. Not because it is a Mustang..

I don't see Chevy designing a Camaro off the Corvette's platform, or under it's own design. Therefore, it is not a focused chassis.


/end thread <--- IMO



for the dERP'ers..
Ford can always add moAr horsepower..
Ford can always add moAr brakes...
Ford can always add moAr carbon fiber..
Ford can always add moAr...

Because they engineered a chassis to do motorsports & so even EcoBoost buyers benefit. It's foundation is purposeful.

I feel ya' bud, once we got a look at the S550 in our Chassis School Thread, Fords engineering advantage was pretty obvious. M6G member S550Boss was adamant that it was a carry over platform and Mitchell even warned of a 200-300lbs gain was bound to happen. The S550's bare chassis makes the ATS's look like an 80's Euro-box. There is absolutely nothing ground breaking about the Alpha... In 2010 it was ahead of its time.

I also don't ever see the Camaro adopting the Corvettes space frame. It would make an entry level V8 cost $50,000+. Only to bring a C7 based Camaro's curb weight down to 3400-3500lbs (Z51 curb weight). Add in back seats and maybe 2-3 inches in wheelbase... Come on man... That's pushing 3600lbs even with an Aluminum, one piece, hydro-formed Space frame.

...and there are actual weight predictions at or around 3600lbs...

What I like most, as you said, the Motorsport prepped Mustangs will be hard to beat. S197's could be taken down to 3400-3500lbs no problem. I'm waiting on some official numbers but, I think the early rumors of a 200lbs weight reduction actually came from the first leaks on Body in White weight loss. We are seeing 140lbs we can remove from an S550 that, when removed, both the S550 and S197 would have almost equal content. So, 200lbs wouldn't be too hard to believe.

Hopefully Chevy developed a specific platform for the 6th Gen Camaro. A shared platform at this level is cheap. It makes me really not give a damn about its full size wheel base or its weight. Chances are, it will be a Mustang rip off like it has always been. Coming from a company that made its own Ford Raptor.... How pathetic...

 

[ChefBorOzzy]

So many GM bashers here.

Do I think that the Alpha platform was designed for high horsepower?? Yes.. Have you seen the second gen CTS-V?

 

[thePill]

So many GM bashers here.

Do I think that the Alpha platform was designed for high horsepower?? Yes.. Have you seen the second gen CTS-V?

Any comments on the 300+ degree oil temperatures in the z28's? There is no way they tested those vehicles and allowed that to pass. It isn't a select few, even those that have tracked their "race cars" experienced 285+ temps... That is also bad... Not pegged gauge bad, but still opposite of good.

Anyway, I bash Chevy in general, not GM on a regular basis. They make poor decisions like their version of the Raptor, or making predictions and getting blown outta the water... Or running ringers, or prepping an OEM car to advertise lap times.

It only seems to be Chevy... I'll also have you know, I openly think the C7 is the greatest sports car ever offered to the masses.

Edit: Do I think the Alpha CTS can handle high output? Yes, it would have to wouldn't it? How much additional weight did the CTS-V take on?

You also have to consider, high output is one thing, high performance is another. The CTS-V will not be capable of what a say, ZL1 or z28 is. The lateral G forces will be night and day... Braking forces, the Camaro will need to stop at estimated higher speeds for longer periods of time.

Does the CTS-V have additional reinforcements to support a convertible?

Besides, this is the CTS losing weight... What if we find out its lightweight for a sedan but about equal to the Zeta in coupe form. It looks impressive coming from huge CTS-V. The Zeta was no where near as heavy... It was, on average, 200lbs lighter. About where the CTS-V's look like they will settle. 4250 vs. 4050? Sound right?

Now figure in our big brakes, suspension components, coolers, tires, wheels and all the other stuff the CTSV won't need.

 

[ChefBorOzzy]

Have no idea about the Z28. You're knocking the Alpha platform while all the professional reviewers craze over it. The Mustang was outperformed by a fat ass Camaro on the track. Let's see what happens when fourth quarter of 2015 rolls around.

According to you and how you knocked the Alpha chassis, the Camaro won't even come close to competing with the Mustang. We'll see I guess.

 

[thePill]

Have no idea about the Z28. You're knocking the Alpha platform while all the professional reviewers craze over it. The Mustang was outperformed by a fat ass Camaro on the track. Let's see what happens when fourth quarter of 2015 rolls around.

According to you and how you knocked the Alpha chassis, the Camaro won't even come close to competing with the Mustang. We'll see I guess.

LOL!!! You said "reviewers"

Poor man... These are the same "reviewers" that raved about the handling in the 2010 SS but didn't tell you they ran off the road until 2014. No thanks, I'm not an idiot. I can see its just a regular Unibody. Nothing special except holes were placed in the structure to reduce weight.

Do you know what a Chief is? The Alpha is Chief bound...

Edit: Wait... Did you mean that an $80,000 Camaro outperformed a $40,000 Mustang? I'm getting a good mental picture of an $80,000 factory Mustang...

I think I pointed this out concerning class racing in CTSCC. If you absolutely need a significant advantage like that, and are unlimited, I say go for it.

 

[JoeDogInKC]

Most people foolishly apply the CTS's weight savings from '14 to '15 to the 5th Gens current weight of 3920lbs. The weight loss experienced by the 2015 CTS will not translate to the Camaro. Even if it did, the TT V6 CTS weighs 3976lbs, that's the realistic window we are looking at. Taking on convertible and high horsepower variations will add weight, just as it did with the S550. Doubling the number of airbags, the LT1 and Tremec combo is worth 100lbs and the suspension/brakes will add at least 50 to that. Standard 19's are also heavier.

Here's what I'm not quite understanding. How can you say that the weight savings won't translate from the CTS (or even ATS) to the Camaro when the Caddy will likely have even more "creature comforts" and higher weight materials inside due to the luxury aspect? Surely the Caddy's have richer materials, more standard equipment and more options available than a Camaro would have, right? I mean, I'm no GM/Chevy/Caddy expert, but isn't considered to be their "luxury" brand?

 

[ChefBorOzzy]

80,000? More like the 1LE. Don't even try to deny it.

Check out how the V-sport performs.. Pretty solid, especially considering it's a luxury sedan. Again, knock ont he 2016 Camaro all you want because you won't be able to knock the performance come next year.

 

[ChefBorOzzy]

Keep editing your posts. You knock on the Camaro in general, not just Z/28.

 

[thePill]

80,000? More like the 1LE. Don't even try to deny it.

Check out how the V-sport performs.. Pretty solid, especially considering it's a luxury sedan. Again, knock ont he 2016 Camaro all you want because you won't be able to knock the performance come next year.

I'm laughing at the 1LE. First off, many of you complain that Ford only sent them a GT. You need to understand, Ford sent them their very own SCCA T2 entry. The SCCA T2 class was the ONLY class Team Camaro made an effort to sanction a Camaro in Motorsport. ONE Camaro 1LE driven by a hot shoe Corvette driver of theirs.

The 1LE won a few magazine comparisons, it was their turn. However, in real life, that "race car" had it's ass handed to it by not one, but SEVEN 2011-2012 Mustang GT's.

So, while its fun to read comic books, the real story is at the races.

...the factory backed Camaro 1LE finished like 15th overall the first season, 21st the second. The driver eventually went back to Corvette in T1 and the Factory Backed Camaro Program was halted.

The 5th Gen is that bad.

Edit: Why can't I edit?

 

[ChefBorOzzy]

The real story is the same person driving both cars back to back.. Pobst states from the factory 1LE > Mustang GT. Again, just wait until 2016 comes in lighter than the 5th gen. You honestly think that the Mustang is walking away from the Camaro in performance? That's exactly what you sound like. Trickle down and sharing works.. Keep your own chassis!

 

[thePill]

Here's what I'm not quite understanding. How can you say that the weight savings won't translate from the CTS (or even ATS) to the Camaro when the Caddy will likely have even more "creature comforts" and higher weight materials inside due to the luxury aspect? Surely the Caddy's have richer materials, more standard equipment and more options available than a Camaro would have, right? I mean, I'm no GM/Chevy/Caddy expert, but isn't considered to be their "luxury" brand?

Oh man, sorry bud, I skipped over this in the heat of battle.

It will have a lot of creature comforts, I'll bet, most of it was already present prior to '15. The Mustang has actually risen to Caddy type standard features, a big piece of the weight gained back was interior equipment and double the amount of airbags. This class of car is in danger of being featured out but, it sells cars and is competitive. Both the Corvette and Mustang have move up market and, have taken on lots of airbags. The Alpha's weight loss isn't scientific, its merely casting holes into the structure to reduce weight. Look at the new Fusion and its list of curb weights, compared to a smaller Alpha. The Fusion is lightweight now, especially being Taurus sized. Hell, compare the Taurus and Fusion, two different Unibody designs, same wheelbase...

Anyway, comparing a 14 CTSV at 4250lbs, a potential 4050lbs 15 CTSV looks good. The F150 weight loss theory is applied here. The bigger the chassis the more potential for weight loss. However, the '14 CTSV and 15 ZL1 are not based on the same platform, at all. If the 15 CTSV weighs around 4050lbs, and I'm being generous and working from the TT V6's 3976lbs on the 15 CTS, can we expect a higher performing Camaro ZL1 to weigh less? Remember now, the 15 CTS is the base, once a Z51 type suspension, brakes yadda, yadda, yadda is added... Its gonna need weight reduction elsewhere. All while absorbing new standard features, safety equipment, convertible reinforcement, high performance reinforcement... We witnessed both Corvette and Mustang fall victim to this. Are both their chassis's lighter overall? Yeah, I'd say so as well as the upcoming Camaro. Although, with all we have seen so far with new standard equipment, safety features and possibly a very complex US Curb Weight Standard, we won't see that savings on paper. I'm sure there is some there, more than others.

What did the 2015 ZL1 weigh? 4120lbs? I estimate a 4050lbs CTS-V based on the CTS's TT V6's 3976lbs. That's not a very big gap... This is an example of what's "lightweight" for a Caddy may just be on par with a Camaro. Where is the weight gonna come from if they need to take it out? Nit the structure, it was designed as light as possible. Strip it? Ford can match ya on that...

To sum it up, most Camaro fans are taking the weight savings the CTS experiences and applying that to an already smaller platform. To be fair, some are using the 14 CTS-V's weight against the base 15's 36xx and using that number as the total saved. In short, the 15 CTS isn't going to lose 200lbs from the '14 and then the Camaro lose 200lbs again just for becoming a Camaro. That's probably the stupidest idea I've ever seen a group of people agree upon.

Edit: After proof reading that, its very obvious that it will be a challenge. Not for them to understand any of this but, it will be difficult to even match their old curb weights.

actually, since everyone assumes the SS still weighs 3820lbs (now 3920, 100 more than the z28), this could look bad. Assume they can match the S550 and C7's attemps of 87 and 90lbs, it would make their official curb weigh jump from 3920 to 4000 but appear as if it gained 180lbs using 2010 weights....

IF they can even manage that. Can a shortened wheelbase from the CTS TT V6 remove the 376lbs they need for a 3600lbs Camaro V8?

 

[Big reg]

He acts as if he is omniscient about all things GM. Anything Camaro related will be negative. I've lurked here for 10+ months to know better than to waste my time arguing with him about it.

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