GM is pulling back on EVs

[Gregs24]

It is for those that want it to be

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[Gregs24]

Ironically, despite all my anti-EV comments on this forum, I'm not opposed to the idea of driving an EV. Or rather, I wouldn't be if they weren't trying to force me into it.
While I can't stand Teslas for several reasons, chief among which is that there aren't enough words in all languages combined to express how much I loathe Musk, there are a few that I really like. I wouldn't mind driving a Taycan if I could afford one. Or a Rimac. Or even a Mach-E for that matter, if I'm honest.
You'll never see me in an i3 though, or anything like that.

I'm also looking on the bright side. The more people switch to EVs, the more of a bad boy I will look in my V8 Mustang. The more special it will feel. I bought it because it was politically incorrect. And as the world moves towards EVs, its PI character will increase.

We seem to have hit upon a point of agreement re Elon Musk!

Taycan is a great car and to be fair car makers are playing catch up so they are concentrating on SUV boxes and I wouldn't buy one of those whatever powers it. However my wife loves her PHEV Kuga and it is very much the best to drive compared to diesel or petrol equivalents.

I drive a Mustang because I like it - I'm not interested in presenting an image to others.

 

[sk47]

Hello; As far as basics go this is not a bad image. The generator in the wheelbarrow can represent the power plant which now and for years to come will mainly run-on fossil fuels. The extension cord is a simplified version of the grid.
But yeah, this is basically how green energy works in real life. Guess a small post card sized solar panel and tiny windmill could be added to the image to represent the tiny amount from those green sources.

 

[Vlad Soare]

However my wife loves her PHEV Kuga and it is very much the best to drive compared to diesel or petrol equivalents.

Kuga is a great car, one of the best in its class in my opinion. And by far the best looking. My wife loves hers, too (though hers isn't a hybrid, but that's just because the hybrid wasn't available at the time).
I'm not sure, but I think the hybrid Kuga is really a hybrid, isn't it? I mean, not a "mild" one. If it's the same kind of hybrid drive as used in the Mondeo, that's really awesome. I loved mine. You won't hear any critique from me.

I drive a Mustang because I like it - I'm not interested in presenting an image to others.

Fair point, and to a degree I do agree with it. I drive a Mustang because I like it, too. I wouldn't buy something I didn't like just for the image. I wouldn't have bought a 1 litre, 3-cylinder, 90 HP Mustang no matter how good it might have looked.

However, I like it for several reasons, and the image it projects is one of them. You could put the same powertrain in a Nissan Juke, but I wouldn't be seen dead in it, even if you gave it to me for free.

We all have a certain perception about ourselves and certain personal values, which influence how we look, how we dress, how we behave in society, how we talk to others... We all try to make our own identity, as perceived by ourselves, visible to others in various ways, sometimes even without realizing it. We all behave in a way that expresses our own personal values one way or the other, and we don't want to make the wrong impression.
The thing I value most in life is freedom - any kind of freedom, including freedom of speech. I value it above anything else, even above my life. I'd rather die than give it up. That makes me nonconformist and politically incorrect. And because I am like this, and I encourage others to be like this every time I get the chance, I'm also happy when others see me like this. Because this is actually who I am; I'm not faking it.

 

[Gregs24]

Kuga is a great car, one of the best in its class in my opinion. And by far the best looking. My wife loves hers, too (though hers isn't a hybrid, but that's just because the hybrid wasn't available at the time).
I'm not sure, but I think the hybrid Kuga is really a hybrid, isn't it? I mean, not a "mild" one. If it's the same kind of hybrid drive as used in the Mondeo, that's really awesome. I loved mine. You won't hear any critique from me.

There is a full hybrid and a plug in hybrid. The PHEV has 225PS so goes pretty well. It does about 35 miles on electric which covers most of my wife's daily drive. We charge from our solar PV's so it is effectively free.

 

[AZlb5.0]

Anyone that has ever driven in Texas understands how worthless EVs are around here.

I did that drive a few times. I was stationed at Ft Bragg and family was in Arizona. I’d do the drive when I’d take like a 30 day leave 1nce a year and fly the other times. It definitely was decompressing. But like you said that Texas drive. I’d leave Tucson on a Friday at 0400 and drive straight through Texas and get to Shreveport at 2230. Texas is a monster of a state with mostly desolate highways. You’d have to stop X2 if not more depending on the EV to make it through that state. It’s 881 miles end to end from NM to Louisiana. The most affordable EV is 30K and has a range of 114 miles. The most expensive EV is 175K with a 502 mile.

 

[sk47]

We can argue EVs until we are all blue in the face but the reality is economics will drive adoption not some agenda.

Hello; I agree that economics will be a big factor under normal circumstances. Thing is these agendas have an economic impact. Best example i can think of is how agendas drove conditions during the Covid pandemic. Before someone tries to claim I wanted nothing to be done, let me say such is not the case.
It was the extremes in lockdowns and Covid spending which plague us currently. The mandates already in place about no ICE sales are even this early tilting the scales.

 

[Gregs24]

Europe is an example of where EVs can work. High population density, high fuel cost and strict emissions standards are forcing money into the right places to make EVs a viable alternative. Europe is also small compared to the US.

The US is basically the opposite. Low fuel cost, lax emissions, and low population density make EVs worthless for most of the population outside of cities. Widespread adoption on the US is not going to happen until ranges increases at least 3x. GM understands the US EV’s market share will stagnate in the future. At that point it will just be just competition for that small market share among manufactures.

We can argue EVs until we are all blue in the face but the reality is economics will drive adoption not some agenda.

Anyone that has ever driven in Texas understands how worthless EVs are around here.

Completely understand - but the average journey length in the US is little more than in Europe ay 11.5 miles. So for most people most of the time EV range isn't an issue. A PHEV is the ideal compromise where you can use EV driving for all the local stuff and ICE for longer distances. We have a Ford Kuga PHEV and it has done about 3/4 of it's mileage on electric locally with longer journeys on petrol. That has saved a LOT of petrol.

It isn't black and white, good / no good as you say.

 

[sk47]

Completely understand - but the average journey length in the US is little more than in Europe ay 11.5 miles. So for most people most of the time EV range isn't an issue. A PHEV is the ideal compromise where you can use EV driving for all the local stuff and ICE for longer distances. We have a Ford Kuga PHEV and it has done about 3/4 of it's mileage on electric locally with longer journeys on petrol. That has saved a LOT of petrol.

It isn't black and white, good / no good as you say.

Hello; Not sure where the 11.5 miles average comes from. Maybe skewed by city driving as so many things are by the high-density population centers. I know of lots who have near 50 mile commutes. One year after i retired I filled in for a Biology teacher who had a baby. I was driving 108 miles a day five days a week that school year. I knew other teachers who had longer commutes than that. Not many to be sure.
Lots of people live in Powell Valley here in TN because it is a nice area. Many work in the Knoxville TN area around 50 to 60 miles away or more. I did two school years filling in for teachers and wound up with long commutes. Decided to not do that any more.

Here is the thing. After 2030 some folks who do drive far distances every day will not be able to have a new vehicle powered by ICE in some places. Maybe the EV's by then will be good enough but these mandates are not allowing much of a choice. If the EV will not cut it, then a used ICE may be to only choice. My preference is to let people have the choice. If an EV works that will be fine. If an ICE work such ought to be an option.

 

[AZlb5.0]

Completely understand - but the average journey length in the US is little more than in Europe ay 11.5 miles. So for most people most of the time EV range isn't an issue. A PHEV is the ideal compromise where you can use EV driving for all the local stuff and ICE for longer distances. We have a Ford Kuga PHEV and it has done about 3/4 of it's mileage on electric locally with longer journeys on petrol. That has saved a LOT of petrol.

It isn't black and white, good / no good as you say.

I think that Hybrids definitely suit the market need much better. Take Europe for instance. The mandatory vacations that everyone takes in I think July if I remember right, everyone leaves. They either go camping or go outside of the host country. I know a lot of people would travel to from Germany to Spain Italy and France for the beaches. And they would either drive or take the train. Train Vacation where a lot of fun. But I definitely think that Hybrids would fit much better.

 

[jtmat]

The thing I value most in life is freedom - any kind of freedom, including freedom of speech. I value it above anything else, even above my life. I'd rather die than give it up. That makes me nonconformist and politically incorrect. And because I am like this, and I encourage others to be like this every time I get the chance, I'm also happy when others see me like this. Because this is actually who I am; I'm not faking it.

You are not politically incorrect (or a nonconformist) because you purchased a car or believe in freedom. Many times being politically incorrect is because of the way you were raised and/or people you associate with (online/real world), etc. Heck, one could make an argument believing in freedom makes you a conformist.

In case some don't know: being PI means one does not care if they offend or upset any group of people in society who have a disadvantage, or who have been treated differently because of their gender, race or disability (as defined by Collins).

All of us are politically incorrect to some degree. At any rate, you are not politically incorrect because you purchased a car or believe in freedom.

I think that Hybrids definitely suit the market need much better. Take Europe for instance. The mandatory vacations that everyone takes in I think July if I remember right, everyone leaves. They either go camping or go outside of the host country. I know a lot of people would travel to from Germany to Spain Italy and France for the beaches. And they would either drive or take the train. Train Vacation where a lot of fun. But I definitely think that Hybrids would fit much better.

I said many moons ago, if we can get EVs to 850 to 1000 miles per charge, I'd definitely purchase one. That range would give me options when I go on road trips, which I do often. I tend to keep my cars a long time... if less moving parts make them more reliable, that is great.

We already have a boiler for destroying gas cars.... "Cash for Clunkers". That and turning all gas pumps into charging stations. At some point it will get very expensive to deliver gas to a few gas stations...

 

[sk47]

You are not politically incorrect (or a nonconformist) because you purchased a car or believe in freedom. Many times being politically incorrect is because of the way you were raised and/or people you associate with (online/real world), etc. Heck, one could make an argument believing in freedom makes you a conformist.

In case some don't know: being PI means one does not care if they offend or upset any group of people in society who have a disadvantage, or who have been treated differently because of their gender, race or disability (as defined by Collins).

All of us are politically incorrect to some degree. At any rate, you are not politically incorrect because you purchased a car or believe in freedom.



I said many moons ago, if we can get EVs to 850 to 1000 miles per charge, I'd definitely purchase one. That range would give me options when I go on road trips, which I do often. I tend to keep my cars a long time... if less moving parts make them more reliable, that is great.

We already have a boiler for destroying gas cars.... "Cash for Clunkers". That and turning all gas pumps into charging stations. At some point it will get very expensive to deliver gas to a few gas stations...

Hello; OK, I can see 850 miles to a charge as plenty to reduce range anxiety. My current circumstances are such that 850 miles is within the distance I may ever drive in one day. The extended ranges I read about so far usually involve bigger battery packs which add a lot of cost. That would be one of the hurdles crossed if it ever happens and is not too expensive.

A thing about gasoline/oil not often discussed on this site need to be brought up again. At least one member has mentioned the issue before in other threads. Do not recall who that was just now. That point is we have become dependent on so many of the byproducts from refining crude oil.
The kicker being in the process a lot of secondary things come out of an oil refinery, not just diesel or gasoline. If all crude use is stopped, what will we replace these needed items with? I am old enough to know of living before all the various plastics were in use. What will replace the asphalt for the road surfaces is a good enough example? Cement perhaps? Well the "green" agenda is already after cement for one thing and the additional energy to cook cement will be a problem.
Perhaps the thought is we just make the needed things from crude and do not use the diesel, gasoline, propane and other fuel type byproducts. As I understand these fuels will become waste byproducts if they cannot be used. I am not naive enough to not understand the refining process can be tweaked a bit to partly reduce such waste. But a question of what to do with the gasoline and diesel will have to be addressed.
The cost of refining might be largely paid for by the price of all the plastics, heavy greases/oils, medical supplies, clothing, carpet and all being raised. Might be the "waste" fuels will only have a delivery/handling toll for us ICE holdouts to meet.
If I am correct for some time gasoline was indeed dumped as waste before a use was discovered for it.
Supply and demand might keep the cost low in a largely EV world.

 

[sk47]

Hello; Had another thought. Seems for some the idea of no fossil fuels is we just stop using them one once we have EV mandates in place. Thing is crude, coal and natural gas are woven deeply into lifestyles around the world.
One prime example ought to be enough but make no mistake there are plenty of other examples which can be used. The human population is at or around eight billion currently. Traditional farming methods are said to be able to possibly feed around five billion people. Where does the food come from currently that almost fills the gap of three billion mouths?? It is fertilizer made largely from natural gas which helps farmland become more productive. Guess i could throw in all the heavy equipment and transport in place which run on fossil fuels.

Perhaps later a longer post about how grain will get from where it is grown to where it is eaten without fossil fuels. My take on EV's is the heavy equipment, ships, trains and such ought to be the first to go full EV, not personal transport. Get a sound foundation for life's needs in place before banning the fuel life's needs run on.

 

[Gregs24]

I said many moons ago, if we can get EVs to 850 to 1000 miles per charge, I'd definitely purchase one. That range would give me options when I go on road trips, which I do often. I tend to keep my cars a long time... if less moving parts make them more reliable, that is great.

Mercedes are getting there. 751 actual miles not just a calculation or prediction

Mercedes EQXX review: ultra-long-range EV experiment driven Reviews 2022 | Top Gear

 

[sk47]

Mercedes are getting there. 751 actual miles not just a calculation or prediction

Mercedes EQXX review: ultra-long-range EV experiment driven Reviews 2022 | Top Gear

Hello; Only 99 miles short of the low end goal. A special low drag body. Air cooled to save weight. A special lighter weight battery. Not in production????

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