Can the 2014 Corvette-powered Gen 6 Camaro SS compete with the 2015 Mustang?

[Mach1]

Looking back at the last platform change from '04-'05, GT power went from 260hp-300hp. Styling and a pretty significant bump in power at the same time there. I'm not sure Ford has much concern for previous model owners' remorse. After all-- how would you feel if you bought a 2010 Mustang? =)

475hp might be a ways off in the standard GT, but perhaps not in a special model slotted just above it in the Boss's old spot. I think 440-450 is where the GT is going to hit in '15 with about 150-250lbs of weight loss. They're going to want more than just buzz about how nice it looks and how much better it handles-- they're going to want people talking about a power increase too.

40hp was a healthy increase but if I remember correctly, the old 4.6 was just re-certified using the new test. EPA certs required Air Conditioning usage to be figured in around that time. This would require a re-certification in which it was then 300hp out of the same 2004 4.6 with noting more than slight changes in exhaust.

I have said before, they could save some $$$ if they just green light DI right off the bat. The new S550 will need re-certified anyway... why not just save some money and really make it hard for the competition.

Unless they need to met or exceed the projected MSRP. That's the only thing left on the table that dictates... MPG will be higher already, HP/TQ will raise slightly from new exhaust, Weight isn't affected by these decisions and it won't affect the design at all... Money will dictate... but could the savings be there in the long run if the GT exceeds $32,998? Meaning, over the span of 10 years, will it keep the MSRP from scaling as less than the S197? There was a $6000 increase in 10 years and that's pretty good... If Ford can offer a 475hp GT in 2025 for less than $35,000... I'll sh!t myself...

I would have absolutely NO CHOICE but to trade in...

The GT500 had a $15,000 increase over the period of 8 years... Let's hope that they can get a handle on that...

You can't really compare 40hp increase in 05 with an equal increase in 2015. The 05 GT put on over 200lbs curb weight over the 04. They had to increase power (among other things) just to keep it on par with the 04's run times...

The 2015 GT should be able to do that with weight loss and better handling alone. Combine that with great design and a new eco trim, and I think that is all Ford is looking to do for 2015. I would love to see them enable DI next year but I think they'll hold off until the Camaro starts to really nip at its heels.

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[S550Boss]

I see... just "good enough". Not the best they can do. Under this philosophy they just could have stayed with the 4.6.
Lets face it... one year later the Camaro will be "nipping at it's heals". A brand new Camaro, not sharing a V-8 with the old Camaro, but with the 29 MPG 'vette. And a Camaro that could very well weigh the same as the Mustang.
So "good enough" doesn't fly.

 

[ngiotta]

You can't really compare 40hp increase in 05 with an equal increase in 2015. The 05 GT put on over 200lbs curb weight over the 04. They had to increase power (among other things) just to keep it on par with the 04's run times...

The 2015 GT should be able to do that with weight loss and better handling alone. Combine that with great design and a new eco trim, and I think that is all Ford is looking to do for 2015. I would love to see them enable DI next year but I think they'll hold off until the Camaro starts to really nip at its heels.

They didn't really "have" to do anything. It looked brilliant when it came out and had zero competition in 2005. The Camaro is already nipping at its heels and with the 1LE, Z/28, ZL1 and the impending weight loss. They'd be taking a pretty big risk of being overshadowed if they didn't bump output by at least 25-30hp. The next Camaro has DI. It wouldn't make sense for Ford to let them beat them to the punch.

 

[thePill]

I see... just "good enough". Not the best they can do. Under this philosophy they just could have stayed with the 4.6.
Lets face it... one year later the Camaro will be "nipping at it's heals". A brand new Camaro, not sharing a V-8 with the old Camaro, but with the 29 MPG 'vette. And a Camaro that could very well weigh the same as the Mustang.
So "good enough" doesn't fly.

I know you want a Ferrari TOMORROW but Ford can't give you that all at once for under $33,000 brother, you seek the wrong horse. In real life, the model needs to scale accordingly throughout it's model life with upgrades... It's good business and the reason Chevy is always nipping at its heels and never wins... They play EVERY card to match the Mustang only to get trumped in the morning... Stick to driving and let businessmen handle business...

To be honest, the Mustang's "good enough" is better than the Camaro's "best" so... seems to be working just fine.

Good luck on a 6th Gen Camaro getting under 3600lbs in V8 form.. The ATS chassis is not as lightweight as they want you to think. 29mpg with AFM? No thanks... On my grandmother mini van maybe.. That's what they get for sticking with pushrods.

 

[tuning101]

I love how everyone seems so convinced they know the exact specs of the next camaro that is still at least 2 years away. Meanwhile, most can't even agree on which platform the s550 is based off of, let alone how much it will weigh or how much HP it'll pack. This, with under 9 months before we see it.

 

[J.Darcy]

Good luck on a 6th Gen Camaro getting under 3600lbs in V8 form.. The ATS chassis is not as lightweight as they want you to think. 29mpg with AFM? No thanks... On my grandmother mini van maybe.. That's what they get for sticking with pushrods.

Curious why the Camaro would be heavier than the ATS if they're gonna be built on same platform?

Its got two less doors and should be smaller/shorter overall?

 

[Mach1]

They didn't really "have" to do anything. It looked brilliant when it came out and had zero competition in 2005. The Camaro is already nipping at its heels and with the 1LE, Z/28, ZL1 and the impending weight loss. They'd be taking a pretty big risk of being overshadowed if they didn't bump output by at least 25-30hp. The next Camaro has DI. It wouldn't make sense for Ford to let them beat them to the punch.

I see... just "good enough". Not the best they can do. Under this philosophy they just could have stayed with the 4.6.
Lets face it... one year later the Camaro will be "nipping at it's heals". A brand new Camaro, not sharing a V-8 with the old Camaro, but with the 29 MPG 'vette. And a Camaro that could very well weigh the same as the Mustang.
So "good enough" doesn't fly.

I never said that's all I'd like to see, I said that's all that Ford is probably looking to do for 2015. Hell, I'd love a GT with 500hp, 3200lbs and while you're at it, give me BMW like interior, all for under $33K. Not realistic.

As the Pill said, this is just how business is done. There is no need for Ford to blow the Camaro out of the water. They're doing fine against the 5th gen right now. And nothing will change for 2015 as far as the Camaro goes. So why would they need to do more in the first model year than 200lb loss/20hp increase?

Updated powertrain options in the 2nd or 3rd year makes the most sense given the timing of the next gen Camaro, Ford's past practices, and the fact that they will sell buttloads of cars without just a nominal increase in HP for 2015.

And let's be honest, what we're essentially asking for is a Boss 302 S550 (minus all the track-oriented goodies), 200lbs lighter and ~450hp AND with all the safety, tech and practicality of a GT..... for much less $. We should all be so lucky.

 

[thePill]

Curious why the Camaro would be heavier than the ATS if they're gonna be built on same platform?

Its got two less doors and should be smaller/shorter overall?

2 door cars are typically heavier than four doors as long as the dimensions stay the same. Caddy usually slightly down sizes the 2 doors (with some weight savings) to compensate. The addition of the B pillar usually doesn't need extreme chassis reinforcement. For example, the CTSV coupe in 188.5 (191.6 four door) inches long and 2 inches lower than the 4 door. It is 2 inches wider but both weigh the same. I don't think the 6th gen will keep the ATS wheelbase so it could be heavier still.

Older cars were different, 4 doors were always heavier. The 4 door is extremely rigid and takes less steel due to design. This isnt always set in stone but most VW, BMW and the new Dart, the 2 doors are heavier than the 4's.

Also, the ATS I was referring to is all wheel drive and weighs almost 3700lbs, close to a V8, RWD coupe.

You can't really compare two different models like that.

Some are heavier, some are lighter but in Caddy's case, they have been downsizing the coupes slightly.

 

[MustangMarine]

2 door cars are typically heavier than four doors as long as the dimensions stay the same. Caddy usually slightly down sizes the 2 doors (with some weight savings) to compensate. The addition of the B pillar usually doesn't need extreme chassis reinforcement. For example, the CTSV coupe in 188.5 (191.6 four door) inches long and 2 inches lower than the 4 door. It is 2 inches wider but both weigh the same. I don't think the 6th gen will keep the ATS wheelbase so it could be heavier still.

I don't know about that. Take the M3 coupe vs sedan for example. The coupe weighs 3,483 pounds while the sedan weighs 3,538 pounds. M3 coupe and sedan are on same exact platform and the coupe is even longer.

 

[Coyotestang13]

Exactly - the S550 GT might have 450 HP - might - but it won't have 450 torque. And if it weighs more or less identical to the Alpha Camaro... then bad news.

No idea how much torque the revised 5.0 will make but that can be fixed with gearing and a higher rev range that I can predict it getting. I really doubt the next Camaro will lose more than 150 lbs. Anything more and the SS will be getting close to Corvette weight territory which is now over 3400 lbs.

 

[Coyotestang13]

Maybe the next Camaro will drop 200 but nothing more. Still will weigh more than the next Mustang.

 

[thePill]

It will be difficult if the Mustang comes in 200lbs less around the curb weight of the Stingray. It will be harder still once the Coyote upgrades to direct injection and could produce 450-475HP. Chevy won't risk toppling their own Corvette to knock off the Mustang.

This could be another point in history where the Mustang and Camaro separate. In 1974-'78, the Mustang II and the Monza was considered Pony Cars because the competition has to follow the Mustang.

Here is the article from 1975 Car and Driver... The Camaro/Firebird was just... cars really... Overweight, underpowered but selling well.

http://www.caranddriver.com/compari...za-2+2-vs-ford-mustang-ii-archived-comparison

 

[S550Boss]

The 4 cylinder model might end up under the weight of the C7. It's entirely possible *if* a 200 pound reduction can be attained - which means the lighter 4-cylinder (than the current V-6), the loss of some length (as detailed in my post on the analysis of the measurements of the prototypes), and some other weight saving measures including the all-important "gram strategy" (as Mazda calls it) that I also detailed in an earlier post. All this is a big IF because Ford also has to contend with increasing crash standards (and worldwide compliance to standards that are not all the same).

And also if Ford continues the strategy of offering the EcoBoost as a premium engine, then there would be other premium content in the car as well - increasing it's weight.

The V-8 models will not weigh less than the vette. It's impossible, just wishful thinking. The car would have to be built to tin can standards, like the Fox chassis. Adding the usual stuff like power seats and there goes the weight target.

Then there are are the unknowns... such as what transmission would be used. For example, one reason the miserable POS MT82 (which I hope to hell is gone off this earth in 2015), is that it's lighter than a TR6060. I remember a swap we did years ago of a T-5 for a T-56 and there was 95 versus 141 pound (+46 pounds) difference. So if Ford moves up to a TR6070 (which has essentially the same first couple of rations as the original T-56 and the current TR6060 close ratio), considerable weight is gained and the ratios are still all wrong (designed for low-rev pushrods motors, not the close ratios that the Coyote enjoys - and requires). Remember, every pound and ounce counts.

So it will be interesting to see the tradeoffs. And we won't know about them for a long time. The initial magazine articles will all bubbly regurgitation of the press briefings. The strictly structured first drives will be the same. It's going to take some time to get realistic reporting of production models (not pre-production, which are messaged very carefully). The Mustang rags *never* do that, and the others don't either unless it's in a comparison test. Otherwise they are all about writing the kind of articles which promote selling issues, which they are desperate to do given the state of the magazine publishing industry.

 

[thePill]

The 4 cylinder model might end up under the weight of the C7. It's entirely possible *if* a 200 pound reduction can be attained - which means the lighter 4-cylinder (than the current V-6), the loss of some length (as detailed in my post on the analysis of the measurements of the prototypes), and some other weight saving measures including the all-important "gram strategy" (as Mazda calls it) that I also detailed in an earlier post. All this is a big IF because Ford also has to contend with increasing crash standards (and worldwide compliance to standards that are not all the same).

And also if Ford continues the strategy of offering the EcoBoost as a premium engine, then there would be other premium content in the car as well - increasing it's weight.

The V-8 models will not weigh less than the vette. It's impossible, just wishful thinking. The car would have to be built to tin can standards, like the Fox chassis. Adding the usual stuff like power seats and there goes the weight target.

Then there are are the unknowns... such as what transmission would be used. For example, one reason the miserable POS MT82 (which I hope to hell is gone off this earth in 2015), is that it's lighter than a TR6060. I remember a swap we did years ago of a T-5 for a T-56 and there was 95 versus 141 pound (+46 pounds) difference. So if Ford moves up to a TR6070 (which has essentially the same first couple of rations as the original T-56 and the current TR6060 close ratio), considerable weight is gained and the ratios are still all wrong (designed for low-rev pushrods motors, not the close ratios that the Coyote enjoys - and requires). Remember, every pound and ounce counts.

So it will be interesting to see the tradeoffs. And we won't know about them for a long time. The initial magazine articles will all bubbly regurgitation of the press briefings. The strictly structured first drives will be the same. It's going to take some time to get realistic reporting of production models (not pre-production, which are messaged very carefully). The Mustang rags *never* do that, and the others don't either unless it's in a comparison test. Otherwise they are all about writing the kind of articles which promote selling issues, which they are desperate to do given the state of the magazine publishing industry.

It will be difficult for Ford to undercut the Stingray in weight, I do know Chevy has a hard time losing weight as well. The new Stingray is far from lightweight, in fact, it is the heaviest Corvette to date. Also keep in mind, the Stingray is not the best Corvette offering, while the GT maybe lose 200lbs and weigh in at 3400-3500lbs, it still poses a HUGE problem for the 6th Gen Camaro. The 6th Gen will need a 450-460HP LT1 at 3600-3700lbs to remain competitive with a 3400-3500lbs Mustang using a 430-440HP Coyote. I'm sure the 2017 Camaro will debut with a slightly detuned Stingray engine (MSRP will jump a bit) in which Ford will answer back immediately with the DI Coyote.

Ford is in a fantastic position, leap frogging the Camaro while keeping the Stingray in mind. The Mustang is in a safer position being the underdog in this fight... Remember this though, if the Mustang can't get close to the Stingray, the 6th Gen Camaro will likely maintain a weight gap between the C7 and 6th Gen similar to the C6 and 5th Gen. That will alow Chevy to use the same LT1 without modification to make it less powerful. Although it will be lighter, I'm afraid the Camaro's weight disadvantage will continue into the 6th Gen to create space between the SS and Stingray... It may have little to do with the Mustang's weight. It will be difficult to shed the ATS chassis weight to get the Camaro below 3600lbs. Probably closer to 3700 with the V8, big transmission, rear end, suspension, wheels/tires, larger track/width and so on.

All Ford has to do is get close to the Stingray for $20,000 less (like the GT vs. M3) and they win a lot of hearts and minds.


The GT mission is simple, undercut and overstep the SS to harass the Stingray. In turn, create an internal performance tug of war between Team Vette and Camaro while cannibalizing sales from each. Accomplished by using power to weight ratio and MSRP.

 

[Z0HH6]

IMO the Mustang is a MUCH better car than the Camaro and this is coming from a GM guy.

The 5th gen Camaro is a JOKE it's extremely over weight and looks like a tank. I don't expect much better from the 6th gen because instead of GM building a special platform for it they're borrowing the ATS platform so weight is still going to be an issue, who builds a Muscle car on a Caddillac platform? SMH.

I was close to buying a '14 Mustang and also drove the 1LE Camaro I preferred the Mustang hands down. I decided to hold for the '15 Mustang and see what it has to offer, it may be my first brand new car and my first Ford Mustang.

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