C&D Lightning Lap 2018 Results for GT PP2

[jake_zx2]

"consumables" is the biggest load of BS I've heard. Who gives a fuck, it still means you'd have to spend extra money in order to be faster

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[2018OFPP1?2]

Tire are consumable, and get replaced all the time. If you have half a brain you replace them with something better optimized for their intended use.

When was the last time you replaced your diff cooler?

Now if you want to price the PP2 lower because it doesn't have the coolers of the 1LE, or the standard Recaros, dual mode exhaust, or a good manual gearbox, etc., I might not consider it such a disappointment.

Wow. You got me. You can replace the tires on a camaro ( to put it on equal grounds) because they are consumable, but you can't make any mods to the mustang. Your logic is truly astounding. I guess you have at least half a brain.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Yes the SC2's are being replaced with PS4's. Due to climate I can't run SC2's or PS4's all year long. Hence why the AS3+'s are on it now. The narrow wheel and 285 tire is because they don't make AS3+'s in 305. The smaller wheel was selected as a compromise for the 4 months a year I can't run summer tires.

I'd probably end up with a similar setup for the street (I'm in NJ, and that 8 months/4 months thing is pretty close to what I do with the Subie in my sig). But I'd most likely stick closer to the OE wheel widths, and keep the PSC2's for the track time (and getting to/from the track).

As for tracking it....it isn't meant to be that. It has tags for a reason. It's a commuter car that is fun to drive. Anyone who thinks their stock Mustang is a "track car" is a bit misguided I believe.

A pure track car is a totally different animal, one that would be marginally streetable at best. I get that there aren't too many people any more who would consider driving something as spartan as a near race car on any regular basis.

Street-oriented or not, the PP2 should have at least been made a little more "track-able". This overheating issue makes the PP2 a little like the 100-meter sprinter-specialist who doesn't have the endurance to post good times in the 5K. Unfortunately, it seems that the willingness of people to seek legal solutions has gotten in the way.

It's a good handling street package which does everything I want. The idea of replacing SC2's every year was off putting at best. On the street I'm not going to out drive the AS3's or the PS4's. The SC2's were over kill for me.

Out-drive - probably not. But you did give away some of the goodness inherent in the PP2 package that still shows up even when driven more moderately.

I remember putting tires with a treadwear rating at least 20 points less than the PSC2's 180 (might have been 40 points lower, not sure any more) on a similar size/weight car. But I still got over 10,000 miles per 100 treadwear (no autocross or track driving), and with that in mind I'd probably run them on the street for a while and make my decision then. I do have to wonder which tires people with the PP2 expect to wear out first in purely street driving - and why.

As a side note here, I'm more than OK getting 12,000 miles/100 TW.

But at least I have some actual seat time and made educated decisions on my own as opposed to talking a bunch of garbage over a magazine race like so many here have decided to do.

You have street seat time in a PP2. Some of us have track time in Mustangs with varying levels of modification (starting from little more than wheel/tire/brake pad/brake fluid upgrades relative to "base"). Both experiences have value here.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

Let's compare costs - what would it cost to add all that stuff to a PP2 (minus the manual, which some people like) vs. what it would cost to add the decent visibility, usable trunk space, etc. to a Camaro like the PP2 has?

Unless you've stripped out your Camaro to gain extra performance, you're clearly willing to sacrifice performance for some comfort items. The Mustang can have most things added that it lacks when compared to a Camaro, but it offers things you can't get on a Camaro without a complete redesign. Just like not stripping down the Camaro, some people find the Mustang has the right balance of comfort vs. performance.

Just that the addition of a diff cooler has little or no impact on comfort. Or streetability.

As a stand-alone extra-cost factory-fitted option with no claims that it'd magically turn the Mustang into a "track car" . . . why not? Something that implies "improved durability" in the manner that HD charging systems and coolant systems used to be pitched ought to be enough.


Norm

 

[Arthonon]

Just that the addition of a diff cooler has little or no impact on comfort. Or streetability.

As a stand-alone extra-cost factory-fitted option with no claims that it'd magically turn the Mustang into a "track car" . . . why not? Something that implies "improved durability" in the manner that HD charging systems and coolant systems used to be pitched ought to be enough.


Norm

I'm not saying that Ford shouldn't have done it, or even that they are not over-priced when compared to what they put in a Camaro, I was just making a general comment that Camaro owners often make it sound like their car is superior because it's a little bit faster than a stock Mustang, but yet they could go a little bit faster if they stripped it out, but they don't because the conveniences are worth the trade-offs in performance.

And with the Mustang, you can spend more to add what it is missing compared to the Camaro, but you can't really add to the Camaro what it lacks relative to the Mustang, no matter how much you spend, because of its design, so for many, those trade-offs are worth it to get those features.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I'm not saying that Ford shouldn't have done it, or even that they are not over-priced when compared to what they put in a Camaro, I was just making a general comment that Camaro owners often make it sound like their car is superior because it's a little bit faster than a stock Mustang, but yet they could go a little bit faster if they stripped it out, but they don't because the conveniences are worth the trade-offs in performance.

It's about the Camaro - as delivered - being better suited to the track than the PP2 at least as far as sustained hard running is concerned. Nothing else.

It's not about conveniences at all, or making the Camaro faster by stripping it of content unless you're going to allow the same sort of modification to the PP2. Keep in mind that diff cooling isn't likely to make the PP2 any faster (the extra weight might actually slow it a little). Cooling belongs there so that temperatures don't end your HPDE session early even if you did nip the 1LE's best lap time once, and this is something that can't be viewed from a street driving point of view. You've got to put your mind in track mode where you actually are using most of the performance that the PSC2 tires are capable of giving, which in terms of lateral g's is probably more than twice as hard as most people are comfortable driving at.

And with the Mustang, you can spend more to add what it is missing compared to the Camaro, but you can't really add to the Camaro what it lacks relative to the Mustang, no matter how much you spend, because of its design, so for many, those trade-offs are worth it to get those features.

Still with a street-centered evaluation. For the purposes of track driving in general and LL in particular, "features" are irrelevant. It's only about lap times and the driving. FWIW, outward visibility in the Camaro isn't going to be a major issue on the track like it might be in tight quarters on the street or in parking lots.

I'm not trying to say that consideration of features and what-not is wrong for any individual, but it has no place in discussions where lap times and durability are the things being measured and noted. No more than lap times and the missing cooling need to be brought up in an infotainment thread.


Norm

 

[Arthonon]

It's about the Camaro - as delivered - being better suited to the track than the PP2 at least as far as sustained hard running is concerned. Nothing else.

It's not about conveniences at all, or making the Camaro faster by stripping it of content unless you're going to allow the same sort of modification to the PP2. Keep in mind that diff cooling isn't likely to make the PP2 any faster (the extra weight might actually slow it a little). Cooling belongs there so that temperatures don't end your HPDE session early even if you did nip the 1LE's best lap time once, and this is something that can't be viewed from a street driving point of view. You've got to put your mind in track mode where you actually are using most of the performance that the PSC2 tires are capable of giving, which in terms of lateral g's is probably more than twice as hard as most people are comfortable driving at.



Still with a street-centered evaluation. For the purposes of track driving in general and LL in particular, "features" are irrelevant. It's only about lap times and the driving. FWIW, outward visibility in the Camaro isn't going to be a major issue on the track like it might be in tight quarters on the street or in parking lots.

I'm not trying to say that consideration of features and what-not is wrong for any individual, but it has no place in discussions where lap times and durability are the things being measured and noted. No more than lap times and the missing cooling need to be brought up in an infotainment thread.


Norm

I think this thread has floated around a bit - it actually started off about the PP2's LL performance, then went into talking about how the Camaro compares to the PP2, and then how changing the tires on the Camaro might improve it, etc., so I think limiting the discussion as you say is a little too strict.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that for about a grand (about the same price as those Camaro tires), you could add the cooler to the PP2 and address the issue you discuss, but then still have all of the other advantages that the Mustang has over the Camaro. While conversely, even though the Camaro comes with the coolers standard, you couldn't add the things the Mustang has over it at any price.

 

[9secondko]

GT Mustang was faster than SS Camaro since the 5.0 returned.

Then the new gen cars came out and the Camaro was faster.

But now the Mustang is faster once again.

It will always be a race with its ebbs and flows. But it’s fun one.

Currently, GT is faster than SS. 350R is faster than 1LE.

And soon GT500 will be faster than...

Looks like a sweep in the rematch.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I think this thread has floated around a bit - it actually started off about the PP2's LL performance, then went into talking about how the Camaro compares to the PP2, and then how changing the tires on the Camaro might improve it, etc., so I think limiting the discussion as you say is a little too strict.

A little 'float' that's reasonably relevant to the topic title and post #1 is fine. And FWIW, the Camaro 1LE was specifically mentioned in OP's topic starter . . .

Looks like the Mustang GT PP2 had a great showing. It beat the 2017 Camaro SS1LE's lap time by a full second

What's not reasonable is dragging things into this road course performance have nothing to do with road course performance.

Like I posted yesterday, if you were involved in a thread about, say, Sync3 or some other feature totally unrelated to any facet of driving performance, do you really think that mention of road course strengths/weaknesses would belong in it? What if it was your thread and people insisted on dragging it off topic?

If you need a thread where people can list the reasons they chose or would choose the PP2, or alternatively why they might not choose the PP2, then perhaps somebody needs to start one (hint, hint).

Anyway, all I'm saying is that for about a grand . . . you could add the cooler to the PP2 and address the issue you discuss

If you'd stopped right there, minus the matter of Camaro tire pricing as well, you'd have been right on target. That's the PP2's road course shortcoming, and if Ford could add the necessary cooling for anything like that price you know all the track guys here would check the box for it on the order sheet. As a stand-alone option, you could still get a PP2 for autocross and other "enthusiastic non-road course driving" without it.

Don't forget that the PP2 was able to put down the better "best lap time", so even though it could not safely sustain the pace there's no need to compensate for endurance shortcomings with attributes not relevant to what the LL measures and compares.


Norm

 

[Arthonon]

A little 'float' that's reasonably relevant to the topic title and post #1 is fine. And FWIW, the Camaro 1LE was specifically mentioned in OP's topic starter . . .



What's not reasonable is dragging things into this road course performance have nothing to do with road course performance.

Like I posted yesterday, if you were involved in a thread about, say, Sync3 or some other feature totally unrelated to any facet of driving performance, do you really think that mention of road course strengths/weaknesses would belong in it? What if it was your thread and people insisted on dragging it off topic?

If you need a thread where people can list the reasons they chose or would choose the PP2, or alternatively why they might not choose the PP2, then perhaps somebody needs to start one (hint, hint).



If you'd stopped right there, minus the matter of Camaro tire pricing as well, you'd have been right on target. That's the PP2's road course shortcoming, and if Ford could add the necessary cooling for anything like that price you know all the track guys here would check the box for it on the order sheet. As a stand-alone option, you could still get a PP2 for autocross and other "enthusiastic non-road course driving" without it.

Don't forget that the PP2 was able to put down the better "best lap time", so even though it could not safely sustain the pace there's no need to compensate for endurance shortcomings with attributes not relevant to what the LL measures and compares.


Norm

I think you're taking this a bit too seriously. I was just making a comment to a Camaro post talking about what track-related things you get with the Camaro 1LE vs. what you get with the PP2, and the costs in adding them.

Ford themselves say it isn't a track car, so anyone expecting it to be so without modification is holding it to a standard it was never meant to meet. If someone was considering both, though, I think it's worth noting that the cooler is a relatively easy and cheap fix compared to fixing things that some may not like in the overall Camaro design. Neither of them are dedicated track cars, so I doubt very many are looking at them only in the context of track performance to begin with.

I doubt we'll convince each other which approach is correct, so I'll stop responding and keep this thread about the cars.

 

[9secondko]

Seriously... all this talk about “limiting the discussion” is wack.

A pp2 gt beats a 1le and it’s going to bring up a number of thoughts spanning a variety of directions. That’s why it’s a discussion in the first place.

And comparing to the competition is a dang natural thing to discuss.

Don’t go overboard on trying to control what people think or say about a subject. That’s just weird.

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