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Beginning to think I don't know how to drive a mustang...
Dominant1
Well-Known Member
Its not the product, its the folks behind the wheel. A properly set up car and a disciplined Driver Can do great things behind the wheel. A great car with an idiot behind the wheel can do a lot of damage... I use racing simulators regularly. They’re so accurate that they can help you improve your car control abilities dramatically..they’ve helped me improve my driving skills.
Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
Not stock, anyway. But even if you were only at the 375-ish level in years gone by, it wasn't like you were on tires with the capabilities that the better tires today have either, or that your car back then would have had a suspension that remained as composed when pushed. So the resulting incident probably wouldn't have happened at quite the same speed or with quite as much momentum, it still would have happened. And I suspect that more of the 'almosts-but-not-quites' would have ended up really happening.
You have to keep in mind that TC, AdvanceTrac, and even ABS only work in reaction to sensor readings that essentially surprise their programming. They aren't looking down the road for you (not yet, anyway), so all they can do is (hopefully) rein everything back in after you first try to make the car do something that they are programmed to deny as being reasonably within human capability of controlling.
I guess it would sound nuts if you've been conditioned to believe that they are absolutely essential to safe driving. But to me that implies that I shouldn't be where I am with 55+ years of driving under my belt. I've even suddenly hit patches of spilled coolant at around 1g in the middle of a corner (on the track, not my coolant) without incident. Apparently, it really can be done without "help". I was 69 years old at the time.
Norm
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OP
OP
Briebee72
Well-Known Member
- Thread starter
- #82
Would have to agree, while I dont have the years you do I am pushing past 30 plus years of driving and god knows how many cars maybe 35 or so... this is second car I have had with nannies and modern traction control. Not sure how I survive all those years with out nannies and how turning it off now doesn't just slam me into the ocean and hit a whale or something. Not sure why some think turning off the nannies is "stupid" the off button is there for a reason...
peoples1234
Well-Known Member
Turning off the “nannies” on the street is nuts. There is a big difference between hitting some coolant on the track (remember a controlled environment) and being on the street with animals, potholes, other drivers, unfamiliar road conditions, weather, etc. It’s not a matter of you’re survival for the last however many years, the point is flying over your head. I don’t care how great of a driver you are, there are times when you aren’t 100% (and that is assuming that you’re really even as great as you think you are). You’re tired, distracted, whatever.
The world is full of people who had things happen to them they never thought would. The off button is there for times when you’re in a controlled environment, and want to explore the limit without interference. It isn’t there to turn off on your Sunday drive.
The world is full of people who had things happen to them they never thought would. The off button is there for times when you’re in a controlled environment, and want to explore the limit without interference. It isn’t there to turn off on your Sunday drive.
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Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
No, anybody who drives at 1g on the street is nuts. No matter how good the road conditions might be.
Watch the video more closely, I barely moved off my line and would have remained in even a relatively narrow lane on the street. Never lost control (the car momentarily coming unstuck at one end or the other and needing correction is not the same thing). While the track itself was a controlled environment, the presence of spilled coolant on it was not. I never saw it, not even coming around to the same corners on the next lap. If you were wondering if I had a moment of panic, I'm sorry to have to disappoint you.
And it's still no different from when there were no electronic safety nets and it was 100% on you to drive far enough below the limits of car, road conditions, and your own skill set, with consideration for situations likely to arise, that there was still enough left to cope with the unexpected. It's not about assumed driving greatness, it's about staying within capabilities. There's a difference. Believe it or not, that approach does work. Maybe that means I wouldn't ever drive a Mustang the way all the street racers and show-offs seem to think I should (kind of back to topic), but I'm good with that.
Norm
Dfeeds
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Let me share a story with you, my misguided friend, of a time where traction control would have resulted in an accident.
Twas a fine summer's day, where the peasants ran amock. I was in a bright red 90s Mustang, patiently sitting in a left turn lane, waiting for the green arrow. Said arrow goes green, everyone is stopped, so I proceed to turn left. Well little Jimmy, who was stopped at the crossing intersection (the one that the light literally just went red for), decided he didn't have to wait. Little Jimmy decided to mash his gas pedal. I saw this out of the corner of my eye, smashed my gas pedal, and caused my back end to swerve. This saved me from a T bone. If I was in a car with traction control, and had it on, it would have done its thing and that d bag would've hit my rear end. Traction control aside, I don't see how I would have avoided that in a FWD car.
Keeping everything off keeps the car handling in a predictable fashion. Yes, this includes when I lose control. The nannies aren't perfect and can fail or just not do what it should at the given time. I don't like them. I also get to hear about truck drivers comment on the new collision avoidance on their semis. How this system will mistaken the shadow of an overhead bridge as an object, and trigger the brakes momentarily. Yeah, because that's safe...
The issue at hand isn't whether some of us turn off traction control or not. The issue is people purchasing a 400+ HP vehicle "because they can," without a single clue what the car is capable of. Then said person mashes down the gas pedal with cold tires, freaks out when traction control doesn't keep it straight, and puts it into a pole. Enter youtube, where the Mustang is renowned for its crowd control.
Edit: A point I forgot to mention, that norm mentioned above, is that turning it off keeps me in check. I'm probably much more conservative, in general, than someone who keeps it on. I read about people saying "oh yeah I floor it in the rain and traction control keeps it under control," or that stupid thread that was along the lines of "I punched it in the rain but lost control, is my traction control defective?" Seriously? I won't even humor that notion. Why? Because I know what happens when there's no computer assistance if I get stupid.
I don't see traction control as adding an element of safety. I see traction control as something that's allowing irresponsible drivers to get away with things they otherwise shouldn't.
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peoples1234
Well-Known Member
You can think however you like, but statistically speaking, traction control, abs, and other driver aids result in far fewer accidents than if they were absent. So anecdotal stories aside, leaving them on make “people” safer. But I got it, I’ll get off your lawn.
BimmerDriver
Well-Known Member
I'm with Chris on this, but also getting off of your nicely tended grass and I'll just sit over here and have some popcorn.
I think the OP has a PP1 car, and I wonder - don't they have a different level of traction control than a base car (such as I have)? More forgiving in "normal" mode, and then maybe "off" is for track use, and isn't really off? I'm sorry guys, I'm new to the Ford world, and in the BMW and Corvettes that I've had and driven, the some M cars and Z51 Chevys have different levels of stability control for street, track and totally off is a third setting.
Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
Obviously you've never encountered a situation where stability control or traction control system intervened long before it should have. If you had, you might be taking a less arbitrary position here. Yeah I realize that wouldn't be 'politically correct' in this day and age.
You mention statistics. That's fine. But to throw any "on average" conclusion out and refuse to acknowledge that such a thing as 'standard deviations' exist is to be guilty of misleading. Perhaps not by direct intention, but that's how it reads.
Between my wife and I, we have nearly a hundred years combined with no incidents of significance and over 105 years with no incidents that any of today's nannies would have been able to help cope with (think black ice or another driver following too close in a winter storm). Perhaps you could apply some standard deviation thinking to what no nanny-preventable incidents over that much time might correspond to.
My current AWD car, and the one before it, there are situations where the nannies are unwilling to let me go to the throttle at the same time that I'm adding a little steering lock. Like you might do if you're entering a corner at a reasonably normal pace and start accelerating through it instead of only after exiting it. Maybe you've got a high speed highway merge coming up. I'm talking about 2nd gear speeds and only part throttle here, nowhere near "racing".
Perhaps those systems are specifically calibrated for wet roads (or worse). If so, that just makes them overly conservative/intrusive under better conditions.
Even ABS - arguably the most mature "nanny" of the bunch - can't get every situation right. Trust me on this.
Norm
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