350R VS Z/28

[thePill]

I did some google searching but didn't find the article where the GT was dynod on the same as the SS. It boggles my mind that you compare dyno numbers of different cars taken on different dynos in different years and conclude that the difference in output must mean the car is a ringer.

Here is the issue...

If they didn't dyno the two cars together, what makes you think they tested them on the same day???

I find it incredibly hard to believe they were both there and only the SS was dyno'd. They had to of tested them together and I will be extremely put off if they didn't. MT didn't track the two cars either... I begin to understand why these publications are in danger of being extinct.


Did they get a picture of the two cars together at least? They say nothing of doing the test over the span of the week.

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[flaps]

Here is the issue...

If they didn't dyno the two cars together, what makes you think they tested them on the same day???

I find it incredibly hard to believe they were both there and only the SS was dyno'd. They had to of tested them together and I will be extremely put off if they didn't. MT didn't track the two cars either... I begin to understand why these publications are in danger of being extinct.


Did they get a picture of the two cars together at least? They say nothing of doing the test over the span of the week.

Motortrend did not dyno the Camaro SS. Hot Rod did at a completely different place than Motortrend uses. They also have never dyno'd an S550 Mustang GT.

 

[cosmo]

Here is the issue...

If they didn't dyno the two cars together, what makes you think they tested them on the same day???

I find it incredibly hard to believe they were both there and only the SS was dyno'd. They had to of tested them together and I will be extremely put off if they didn't. MT didn't track the two cars either... I begin to understand why these publications are in danger of being extinct.


Did they get a picture of the two cars together at least? They say nothing of doing the test over the span of the week.

Did you even read the article? There were plenty of pics of them together. And as flaps pointed out, motortrend reported the dyno while hot rod did it.

 

[DiMaio90]

Here is the issue...

If they didn't dyno the two cars together, what makes you think they tested them on the same day???

I find it incredibly hard to believe they were both there and only the SS was dyno'd. They had to of tested them together and I will be extremely put off if they didn't. MT didn't track the two cars either... I begin to understand why these publications are in danger of being extinct.


Did they get a picture of the two cars together at least? They say nothing of doing the test over the span of the week.

I don't know for sure that they tested the cars on the same day. Maybe they didn't. I can't find a motortrend 15' or 16' Mustang GT dyno. Anywhere. Anybody send the link. I want to see if the stangs #s are inflated or right on point. Trying to diagnose this dyno from 2000 miles away is difficult lol.

What I don't understand is how efficient the corvette's transaxle is supposed to be. Yet it had 14.5% drivetrain loss if I remember correctly. It looks to me like this pull is off from what it should have been(underinflated). Which is entirely possible. Because Dynos can vary significantly!!

 

[thePill]

Motortrend did not dyno the Camaro SS. Hot Rod did at a completely different place than Motortrend uses. They also have never dyno'd an S550 Mustang GT.

Motor Trend and Hot Rod are sister publications...

Why did they dyno the SS but not dyno the GT Premium? Were they not in the same place? The yellow Motor Trend Camaro was more than likely the same car Hot Rod had... I don't understand the difficulty here. This was not the first Head to Head these magazines have done.


Hot Rod never questioned why the SS had a 4% more efficient drivetrain than the Corvette?

Where did Hot Rod dyno the car? Wasn't K&N the facility?

 

[thePill]

:lol: from Automobile...

our colleagues over at Hot Rod are big fans of the new Camaro. With a claimed 455 hp and 455 lb-ft of torque, the 2016 Chevrolet Camaro SS is a serious muscle car, but the Hot Rod staff wanted to test the accuracy of Chevy's ratings. Thankfully, Hot Rod wrangled a set of keys to a 2016 Chevrolet Camaro SS, and hooked the car up to a dyno.

How is an 11% drivetrain loss accurate?

 

[cosmo]

Motor Trend and Hot Rod are sister publications...

Why did they dyno the SS but not dyno the GT Premium? Were they not in the same place? The yellow Motor Trend Camaro was more than likely the same car Hot Rod had... I don't understand the difficulty here. This was not the first Head to Head these magazines have done.


Hot Rod never questioned why the SS had a 4% more efficient drivetrain than the Corvette?

Where did Hot Rod dyno the car? Wasn't K&N the facility?

Addiction motorsports. Not k&n. Different dynos.

Ask Ford why the mustang wasn't there.

And we've explained the drive train. The camaro engine is stronger, as we've seen on the SAE testing. The drive train differences may not be as drastic as you think.

 

[ZaneWayne]

:lol: from Automobile...




How is an 11% drivetrain loss accurate?

Isn't 12 percent the norm for modern manuals? 11 is now out of the question.

 

[thePill]

Addiction motorsports. Not k&n. Different dynos.

Ask Ford why the mustang wasn't there.

And we've explained the drive train. The camaro engine is stronger, as we've seen on the SAE testing. The drive train differences may not be as drastic as you think.

Yeah, I seen the explanation...

Let's use the 460hp LT1 equipped Corvette Z51 Manual as a rule of thumb.


The Corvette Dyno's between 390-405RWHP. This is all over the world, many dyno's and all kinds of weather. I'm sure some dyno over 405 just as some dyno under 390. The Corvette is ALWAYS in this window, more closer to 400RWHP... okay??? The Corvette loses between 13% and 14% and it is slightly more efficient than a transmission equipped RWD... Pretty easy info...


Now, the first SS we see is Dyno'd at 405 out of 455hp. That is 11% and very, very good.

If we apply the Corvettes 14% to the Camaro, it's close to 470hp...


The very best Corvette Dyno's say 405 out of 460... that is 12% and about as close as I can get a Corvette to the SS.


...and this is STILL using 91 Octane... maybe a few HP lost...

 

[cosmo]

Yeah, I seen the explanation...

Let's use the 460hp LT1 equipped Corvette Z51 Manual as a rule of thumb.


The Corvette Dyno's between 390-405RWHP. This is all over the world, many dyno's and all kinds of weather. I'm sure some dyno over 405 just as some dyno under 390. The Corvette is ALWAYS in this window, more closer to 400RWHP... okay??? The Corvette loses between 13% and 14% and it is slightly more efficient than a transmission equipped RWD... Pretty easy info...


Now, the first SS we see is Dyno'd at 405 out of 455hp. That is 11% and very, very good.

If we apply the Corvettes 14% to the Camaro, it's close to 470hp...


The very best Corvette Dyno's say 405 out of 460... that is 12% and about as close as I can get a Corvette to the SS.


...and this is STILL using 91 Octane... maybe a few HP lost...

SAE numbers are showing the Camaro's 455 might be a little low as a non-NPP camaro engine dyno'd at 458. They should probably be treated as the same power.

The z51 has a different differential than the base. That's one issue. The electronic diff might cause effiency issues leading to similar % losses through the drive train.

The camaro probably has a newer tune, and maybe it has better OAR to deal with 91 octane.

 

[thePill]

SAE numbers are showing the Camaro's 455 might be a little low as a non-NPP camaro engine dyno'd at 458. They should probably be treated as the same power.

The z51 has a different differential than the base. That's one issue. The electronic diff might cause effiency issues leading to similar % losses through the drive train.

The camaro probably has a newer tune, and maybe it has better OAR to deal with 91 octane.

The NPP could cause a slight power increase, it would be small and it shouldn't be over the Corvette. That will help...

The electric differential should operate in a similar mechanical fashion... this area should be a wash.

VVT is capable of handling the lower Octane but, it does so by retarding the timing. This naturally reduces the output slightly as a side effect... The TiVCT on the Coyote does this as well... Sort of an Anti-Knock feature.


The areas of advantage in the Corvette is the transaxle. There is no solid data as to how much it helps... meaning no rule of thumb. However, transaxle RWD vehicles are 1-3% better than transmission based RWD.

The MT Camaro not only produced a number higher than the best Z51 (405RWHP)... it also had a more efficient drivetrain by 2-3%... and these results were obtained by using 91 Octane :(

 

[Stuntman]

The z28 Dyno's between 435-450RWHP... The LT1 Corvette is 390-405RWHP... The SS should be about 1-2% less than the C7 just on the equipment differences.

Just google searching "Stock C7 Dyno" shows TONS of pulls above 405whp. 415whp seems to be the average on a dynojet:

415whp/455 = 8.8% drivetrain loss. Or the LT1 is under-rated, or a combination of both.

However, transaxle RWD vehicles are 1-3% better than transmission based RWD.

That is an assumption/opinion with no proof to back it up. Transmission and differentials vary greatly in design, gearing, etc... It's not accurate to make this blanket statement.

Its important to note, that like the Z28's LS7, the 2016 Camaro's LT1 has a Tri-Y header (vs. the Corvette LS7/LT1's manifold) and the camaro has greatly varying drivetrain, transmission, diff, rear brakes, wheels, intake design, exhaust design, and the Corvette's transaxle means the driveshaft spins AT ENGINE SPEED, unlike the Camaro and most front-engine rear drive layouts.

 

[thePill]

Just google searching "Stock C7 Dyno" shows TONS of pulls above 405whp. 415whp seems to be the average on a dynojet:

That would be the advantage of a transaxle drivetrain, efficient IRS and lighter wheels/tires.


Never should an SS dyno even close to the Corvette. Today's IRS cars are getting better yes... but not 11%... that is 430, 911 (and now C7) levels of efficiency. The culprit being the transaxle type layout...


...for a regular Camaro SS, it's just not common unless you get a more efficient drivetrain. Usually done by eliminating rotational mass or, putting money into an efficient drivetrain itself... High end transmission, driveshaft, halfs and differential...


Also, judging by the Z06 and LS3 dyno's... all those numbers are a tad high... The Z06 is 435-450 and the LS3 usually doesn't put down 390 to the wheels... The C6 was better than the 5th Gen sure... and that would account for something... just a little ripe on both ends.

 

[Stuntman]

That would be the advantage of a transaxle drivetrain, efficient IRS and lighter wheels/tires.

Never should an SS dyno even close to the Corvette. Today's IRS cars are getting better yes... but not 11%... that is 430, 911 (and now C7) levels of efficiency. The culprit being the transaxle type layout...

...for a regular Camaro SS, it's just not common unless you get a more efficient drivetrain. Usually done by eliminating rotational mass or, putting money into an efficient drivetrain itself... High end transmission, driveshaft, halfs and differential...

You missed all the differences in the intake/exhaust between the Camaro to Corvette, let alone the drivetrain. The Corvette has larger rear brakes = more rotational mass. You can't call them equal.

Also, judging by the Z06 and LS3 dyno's... all those numbers are a tad high... The Z06 is 435-450 and the LS3 usually doesn't put down 390 to the wheels... The C6 was better than the 5th Gen sure... and that would account for something... just a little ripe on both ends.

Rounding up are we? I don't think the 384.49whp is out of line. A quick google search of "Stock LS3 dyno" brings up:

392, 368, 389, 376, 388, 370, 391 = 382whp average.

 

[thePill]

You missed all the differences in the intake/exhaust between the Camaro to Corvette, let alone the drivetrain. The Corvette has larger rear brakes = more rotational mass. You can't call them equal.


Rounding up are we? I don't think the 384.49whp is out of line. A quick google search of "Stock LS3 dyno" brings up:

392, 368, 389, 376, 388, 370, 391 = 382whp average.

But you left out the LS3's that dyno below 370... regardless, it's not incredibly hot... the dyno produced some numbers that are on par with some of the best we have seen out of those examples. Those are probably Corvette Dyno's as well... the Camaro was a little lower if I remember correctly...

As for rotational mass, the Camaro's 20's as well as the larger, longer driveshaft mitigate and losses in rear rotor weight. The TR6060 was heavy transmission internally but, the 6070 could be a bit more.

Nah, that dyno was a little hot...


There was no dyno done of the GTPP Premium either, Hot Rod and MT's objective was different. A First Test vs. a H2H.

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