10 Speed Auto or 6 Speed Manual, what say you?

[hellohello123]

I'm really interested in the Pagani Hyuara's transmission. Single-clutch sequential manual in a real road car. Maybe if my doge holdings blow up I'll buy one to check it out

Happy to swap my new mustang for a second hand pagani plus a kidney if anyone is willing

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[Norm Peterson]

If anyone is interested in breakdown of a PDK and some repair advice that will keep the cost way, way down, check out the following (https://rennlist.com/forums/997-for...epairing-a-pdk-transmission.html#&gid=1&pid=1).

Thanks - looks like a lengthy read (something like 29 pages when pasted into Word). But probably worth it for the insight I expect it to provide.


Norm

 

[Fly2High]

I think we all can agree to this:

Either transmission is good enough to the owner otherwise they would not have purchased it.

Either transmission has shortcomings. To the owner, they are not bad enough when compared to the alternative to have gotten the other. We all find ways to make what we have work. These are not race cars or high priced models of perfection so some imperfection is accepted.

In the end, whatever transmission that has been offered with the Mustang must have been good enough or else this forum would not exist and none of us would own the car in the first place. If you sold it and no longer own a 6th gen, why are you still on this forum when you no longer like the 6th gen? To me, I think you still want to like the 6th gen which is why you come back. I do not feel you just come back to bash a prior purchase and rub the noses of others who still own it.

Finally, we all have our preferences and what we can tolerate. If you are shopping for a car, buy the car with the transmission you can tolerate more. Nothing is perfect.

We each have a purpose for the car and will buy the transmission for that purpose. Purpose is a personal thing. No one's purpose is of any less importance than anyone else's. We all use the tool meant for the job at hand. For us, the car we own is the "right tool".

All the rest, is opinion and conjecture.

Did I leave anything out?

 

[Fly2High]

Thanks - looks like a lengthy read (something like 29 pages when pasted into Word). But probably worth it for the insight I expect it to provide.


Norm

Norm,
I enjoyed the read too. Very cool to see the inner working of the venerated Porsche PDK. I also like that the inner working can directly be used, in some manner, in a manual. I like to see a single gearbox have more than one use. I wish Ford did that. Make a manual gearbox and just add mechanical linkages for the manual guys and a computer and valve assembly for the auto guys. I wonder if that direction could be in our future. Unfortunately, I doubt it because there is only so much time left in cars having a transmission in the first place. I also like that some percentage of that transmission is serviceable without removing the tranny. seems like they designed it pretty well. It is unfortunate they tend to be costly to repair at the dealership since their tendency to see the entire unit as a single replacement part instead of something repairable.

 

[CJJon]

Manual vs Auto: TLDR version

Some manual drivers disparage auto drivers as not having a real connected driving experience. Some auto drivers take umbrage at such remarks.
Most drivers do not care.

The End

 

[GeorgeC]

For me, the question is are you after all out power and speed or do you simply enjoy the extra involvement a manual brings willing to sacrifice some performance for that enjoyment. I guess manual guys have been lucky all these years. It has only been since 2018 that an auto has been on top in a Mustang. They never had to make that choice.

When the time comes, if it ever does, will you choose to be slower just to have some desirable trait or will you simply be chasing speed?

I prefer driving to be fun even when the velocity is constant. An auto , for me, would only be fun while I have that 'pushed into the seat' feeling. Unfortunately, that feeling is over within a few seconds in daily driving. A manual is fun to me all the time. Every turn, every acceleration and every deceleration. Even in traffic, I make driving a manual a game seeing how far I can go without shifting. On days where I cannot drive fast, I make it a game to see how smoothly I can shift. Others, I enjoy working on double clutching even though there is no real need to do it or I work on heel toe coordination. All of these things endear me to a manual. A manual also makes you work for your dinner. It is not a forgone conclusion that you mash the pedal and the spec sheets declare the winner even before you have left the line. In a manual, so much can happen that the winner can swap between the cars at the line.

Accelerating fast is fun but gets old eventually. Also, you cannot always accelerate fast. I find more to a car than just that. In a manual, there is all those things which is what makes an auto boring for those that enjoy those activities. This is just my sentiment. Yours could differ and that is fine too.

I always am curious, does getting beaten by a Tesla sedan make you angry or all those other cars that are faster than the GT A10? Will you be modifying the car to beat them? At what point to do simply accept that someone is always faster than you and just enjoy the car?

Will a car that is slower be less enjoyable to you?

What happens when you find a car that is finally too fast? Will you stop buying cars or will some other metric turn your fancy? If that happens, you might relate more to a manual guy since, for many, the Mustang is already fast enough and they want something besides going fast.

Soon, electrics will take the V8 sound and the feeling of shifting from the driving experience. I am curious if you will enjoy mashing the potentiometer hearing next to nothing, feeling a single kick and then no shifting of gears if that will make you long for the V8 A10? Then again, the rest of the driving experience will be the same as an auto. At least you will once again be the fastest on the road but to get there, the character of a Mustang will have all been gone. It will still be a sports coupe, 2+2 and it will go fast but there, at least to me, was so much more to a Mustang than those few metrics. The sound of a V8, the simplicity of a manual and the feeling of driving a car and being one with it will be lost. I think most will long even for the automatic. There is still some thrill to feeling a car shift. I say this because no one wants a CVT and the manufacturer had to put in fake shift points into the CVT to make the experience more enjoyable. If you hate a CVT, I cannot wait what you will say when the electrics take over.

Yes, the A10 is fun but it has taken a chip out of the soul of the car for many who love it. Not all, but for some it has. For many, the manual Mustang has more soul. I think we will all feel the soul chipped away a ton when the V8 is gone regardless of the transmission.

Either way, I hope you enjoy your car for a long time to come.

I have the 10r80 but I appreciate all the things you have said about the manual. I learned to drive and took my road test on a manual. I wanted more speed and I love the 10r80 but I do miss the manual. BTW your writing is so good you should bee a writer for one of the car mags you really brought me back to why I enjoyed manual so much. Thank you.

 

[Norm Peterson]

First of all, if you like to shift your own gears, and/or don't want to get used to using paddles, that's a personal choice and I would never try to convince you otherwise.

Fair enough. What I can say is that isn't coming from some knee-jerk assumption that I wouldn't like them. It does come after a little actual experience with paddles, some reflective thought, and even a little scrap of video evidence. The Camaro's +/- option at the lever would be much easier for me to adjust to. Not as good as what I'd really like, but better than paddles.

What I am countering is specific issues you have with the A10. Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen you explicitly say whether you've driven that transmission. If you haven't, and you're making all these comments about shift logic, etc., it's about like someone saying that Mustangs don't have any power because they drove a Mustang II and it was weak. Just because previous iterations of something had certain characteristics, it doesn't mean that all subsequent iterations of it are the same.

No, I haven't specifically driven a 10R80 (or its 10Lxx GM equivalent). But regardless of the specific transmission, automated gear selection is still gear selection that's influenced by the preferences and agendas of others. So it's always going to feel a little like "oh-kayyyy, what-the . . . oh yeah, that". Pass.

I'm afraid your analogy misses the mark unless you never bothered to see what the differences were between a Mustang II and whatever other Mustang you might be comparing it against. You ought to know by now that I'd never approach such a comparison blindfolded like that.

It seems to me that the statements you made would also apply to a DCT in auto mode, and from things I've read regarding the DCT in the GT500, most professional race drivers find that it makes the shifts exactly the way they would, so they didn't bother to put it in manual mode. That doesn't mean that the A10 would do the same, but it means that there is shift logic out there that seems to match up pretty well to that of pro drivers, so it's possible that an auto trans could do that.

They would, and they do. DCTs seem to be very good at race pace, though I know I'd still be momentarily surprised by every single automated shift. If I was seriously racing I'd either learn to put up with it or find another series to race in. It's a moot point anyway, as I doubt that any race teams are scouting HPDEs for unknown "race drivers" who are already 70+.

Would it match *your* shift logic? Well, that's a different question. Then it's not about the shift logic being right, it's about it matching you, and again, that's a personal thing.

I've never tried to claim it wasn't personal. "Right" is itself somewhat personal, as the automation can't operate in the same predictive manner as any given human driver might. Not yet, anyway.

Gear spacing for the 10R80 between 3rd and 8th - the gears that you'd typically use on the track - averages something like 1.21 to 1, with a couple of those spacings down in the one-teens. That's really too close for manual operation until you get far enough up there in speed to where 20% corresponds to at least 25 mph. In street driving, sequentially shifting gears at 4000 rpm (mildly enthusiastic driving) would have you shifting four times between 35 and 70 mph. That's before dropping into a more appropriate cruising gear after hitting that 70 mph. Think about that for a moment.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

But if you look at the parts you didn't bold, it actually sounds like it did well on the track, which is usually where the issues being discussed come up - not downshifting for performance, upshifting too soon, etc. I saw another article where someone took it to VIR and found the auto worked well on that track too. They initially had an issue with the downshifts, but got used to it, and the rest they said was very good.

I think this goes to show that driving is not just about the car.

It's really partly about the car and partly about the driver (who can be about as random as things get). So it should not come as a surprise that an automatic will suit some drivers much better than it will others.

< Picky hat on, it's probably partly about the road (or the track) as well. >

And I never meant to imply that the A10 is a perfect transmission, or that people who like manuals should get one, I just wanted to say that a lot of the issues with previous autos are either greatly reduced or removed with the A10. It's not like the autos of old.

Exactly. Even I know this. Hell, I could see some of the potential advantages of an AT all the way back in the late 1960s when automatics only had evolved to the 3-speeds + torque converter level. I'm not making that up.


Norm

 

[Balr14]

As I've mentioned, mine hard shifts in Sport mode more than I think it should, but around town in Normal mode, it's silky smooth, doesn't hunt, and is almost unnoticeable. The only thing I don't like in Normal mode is that it won't downshift as quickly when I hit the gas to accelerate. I can still manually downshift, though, which helps.

I wonder if rear-end gear ratio makes a difference? I have the premium convertible with 3.15 gears and I have no issues with the transmission upshifting, downshifting or hunting. The only thing I have observed that is odd is if I hit the gas hard for a couple seconds, then change my mind and back off, the A10 takes a few seconds to upshift again... like it's telling me to make up my damn mind!

 

[Norm Peterson]

He drives a 2008 so 90% of the stuff discussed here doesn’t apply to him. I’m really curious why he’s commenting here.

Because the S550 Mustang (in some trim) is still at least potentially on one of my "short lists". So when I actively enter into any next ponycar purchase I'll be going into it with greater confidence that I'm making the right choice for me. Threads like this make me do more thinking about the 'why' as well as the 'what' that's involved. I don't want to have to try too hard to like something as expensive as a car.

I’m also curious if he’s ever driven the A10.

Answered elsewhere. Possibly more than once.

Norm

 

[Arthonon]

I think this goes to show that driving is not just about the car.

It's really partly about the car and partly about the driver (who can be about as random as things get). So it should not come as a surprise that an automatic will suit some drivers much better than it will others.

< Picky hat on, it's probably partly about the road (or the track) as well. >



Exactly. Even I know this. Hell, I could see some of the potential advantages of an AT all the way back in the late 1960s when automatics only had evolved to the 3-speeds + torque converter level. I'm not making that up.


Norm

OK, just a few notes here and I’ll wrap it up. First, I am not sure I get the relevance of that last paragraph, as it seems to be talking about ATs in general, and the statement to which it was in response was comparing the A10 to previous ATs.

I get that people like manuals, and I’ve thought about buying an older, cheap sporty car with a manual for that reason. Even if the A10 was superior in ever way, there is something about the process of doing it yourself and mastering the skill that is fun. Kind of like wood-working - most people could more easily buy a new table, maybe even better than they could build, but there’s something about building it yourself that can be fun and satisfying. And that’s not even factoring in the other issues of knowing how it will operate.

So, I don’t care what others drive, or what they think of what I drive, I just like to keep things accurate, and I think a lot of what has been said about the A10 is not entirely accurate, so I was hoping to clarify.

The A10 isn’t perfect, and not everyone will like it. But hearing statements about dealing with someone else’s decisions on how the trans will work seems a little too focused, because you’re always dealing with that. That’s why I posted the video about the manual - someone decided how the gears would be spaced, someone decided how the shifter would be located, how the clutch would feel, how many gears you would have, etc., so. you’re making adjustments to someone else’s decisions regardless of what you buy. It is up to each individual to decide which decisions they choose to deal with, and it won’t be the same for everyone. I just think those decisions should be based on accurate information, and not assumptions.

 

[Norm Peterson]

OK, just a few notes here and I’ll wrap it up. First, I am not sure I get the relevance of that last paragraph, as it seems to be talking about ATs in general, and the statement to which it was in response was comparing the A10 to previous ATs.

My point was that automatics have always had potential advantages. Even before that was fully realized by most enthusiasts or valued high enough by the car companies to justify putting the extra design effort into their ATs to more fully exploit said advantages. But you would have had to put some thought and a little research into it.

The A10 isn’t perfect, and not everyone will like it. But hearing statements about dealing with someone else’s decisions on how the trans will work seems a little too focused, because you’re always dealing with that.

Adapting to mechanical differences is one thing - and this tends to be a "learned once and done" process. Adjusting to and accepting somebody else's logic as your own can be a much more difficult thing to do, given that logic in this context is somewhat "fuzzy" on both sides.

If that sounds too focused, it's probably because once the ways that automatic transmissions work become acceptable it gets harder to imagine that anybody else would see any AT operation as being a stumbling block. IOW, what sounds overly picky to some can sound like deal-breaker-unwanted to at least a few others. The sticking point is probably that you have to step completely outside yourself to truly see the other point of view.

That’s why I posted the video about the manual - someone decided how the gears would be spaced, someone decided how the shifter would be located, how the clutch would feel, how many gears you would have, etc., so. you’re making adjustments to someone else’s decisions regardless of what you buy. It is up to each individual to decide which decisions they choose to deal with, and it won’t be the same for everyone. I just think those decisions should be based on accurate information, and not assumptions.

Understood. And to be perfectly honest I'm not all that crazy about either of the MT82 gearsets.

Chances are that you wouldn't like the gearset of a transmission that I actually am thinking about getting even if you liked either or both of the MT82s.



Norm

 

[Fly2High]

I have the 10r80 but I appreciate all the things you have said about the manual. I learned to drive and took my road test on a manual. I wanted more speed and I love the 10r80 but I do miss the manual. BTW your writing is so good you should bee a writer for one of the car mags you really brought me back to why I enjoyed manual so much. Thank you.

thank you for the complement. It is very much appreciated.

 

[BEERCHAMP]

My friend has a '19 Bullit, I drove it and loved the 20 minute fun run.
I went out an bought '19 GT/CS with 10spd. (knee surgery on both knees- I can handle 20 minutes, but not all the time).
Even though his Bullit has 20 extra HP, he can't keep up with me!
10 spd all the WAY!

 

[Arthonon]

Adapting to mechanical differences is one thing - and this tends to be a "learned once and done" process. Adjusting to and accepting somebody else's logic as your own can be a much more difficult thing to do, given that logic in this context is somewhat "fuzzy" on both sides.

If that sounds too focused, it's probably because once the ways that automatic transmissions work become acceptable it gets harder to imagine that anybody else would see any AT operation as being a stumbling block. IOW, what sounds overly picky to some can sound like deal-breaker-unwanted to at least a few others. The sticking point is probably that you have to step completely outside yourself to truly see the other point of view.

Well, just for the record, I exclusively owned manuals from 1988 through about 2007. After 2007, I concurrently owned a vehicle with an auto and one with a manual until 2018. I had an '04 Mustang with a 5-speed manual, and a '14 with the MT82 6-speed up until I bought the '18 with the auto.

I know how most autos feel and I know how a manual works, having directly gone from driving one to the other for years, and the A10 is different and far better than any of the other autos I have driven. I currently have a Mazda CX-5 with a 6-speed auto and a Mustang with the 10-speed, so I can directly compare them. The Mazda works like just about every other auto I've driven, much as you describe, but the A10 is very different.

If it's not for you, that's perfectly understandable, and again, I would never try to convince someone they should get one, but stating that they work in certain ways or have certain flaws when you have no first-hand knowledge as to whether they actually do just seems a little strange to me.

Regardless, I hope you are able to get a vehicle that you enjoy driving, and does things the way you like.

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