Oil FYI: ASMOIL to release Anti-LSPI Signature Series in Sept.

http://www.amsoil.com/newsstand/art...e30&esid=80e34bd7-4b87-e711-810c-005056827197

I've been advocating for a while that the combination of a low boil off oil with an oil cooler is a good no-maintenance combination for anti-valve caking and anti-LSPI. Of course you could combine that with a catch can and you would have extremely good protection, regardless of weather or not the oil is formulated to resist LSPI.

AMSOIL just announced in September they are releasing a new generation of oils. All 3 grades are formulated to resist LSPI by GM Dexos1 Gen 2 standard which seems to be the primary standard most automotive companies are currently using as a baseline across the US and Europe.

The combination of the new formulation of Signature series and an oil cooler is pretty hard to beat and there's really no need for a catch can at all when running that combination as boil off is so low. Cheers :cheers:

Nice, just wish it was easier to get.

Interesting. The new ILSAC requirements are supposed to address the LSPI concerns too, but it'll be interesting to see how it plays out with the various manufacturers.

What's all the hoopla for ?
Amsoil has been a leader of engine oils and has remained the agricultural go to brand .

The reasonable cause of stochastic Preignition had to be identified for any petroleum manufacturer to consider adjustment to any formula that can prevent Pre-IGNITION.

It's added insurance if your tuned. Currently they are as far as I know the first and only oil manufacturer to address LSPI specifically so far. I'm positive that pretty much every oil supplier is working on LSPI resistant formations, especially now that TDI engine's are going main stream as opposed to just for exotics, but so far nothing has come to market.

Addressing LSPI can be done in several ways. Currently all automotive manufacturers are relying on cooling, piston head design (MAHLE did some great write ups on this), oil separators and tuning (keeping the engine as far away from LSPI prone regions of operation as the can get away with for current standards).

BUT there are some significant trade off's with the above mentioned methods. Fuel economy and power output suffer. There is a lot of potential in both fuel economy and power output that cannot safely be tapped into when relying solely on tuning and mechanical design alterations because the catalyst is still present and the conditions which are most optimal for power and fuel efficiency are also optimal for LSPI WITH the presence of the catalyst aka OIL contamination which WILL happen in all engines to varying degrees.

That might actually be one of the primary reasons factory ecoboost engines are so conservatively tuned (that and running on 87). While the EB seems to be worst offender, all of them can produce a significant amount more power assuming LSPI wasn't a concern and with better cooling.

Also, the majority of failures seem to be an indicator of LSPI conditions. Weather they are bone stock F-150's (seem to be the biggest lot of failures bone stock) or modified Ecoboost Mustangs / Focus ST's / RS's / Fiesta ST's, by far the common theme is "I was just driving normally or I pulled out of a grocery store parking lot and the engine died".

Those are all low RPM / high load situations and the exact description of LSPI. Some of them could certainly be related to metallurgical or assembly defects, which do occur even in non-boosted bone stock NA engines (like the 6.2L, which you can find posts on failed 6.2L and 5.0L engines as well even stock).

In that case a warranty preserving tune like the Ford Performance Calibration is a good testing mechanism. Your pushing the engine much harder, but it's still under warranty and for a long enough time that if a mechanical factory defect exists it's likely to manifest in that time frame.

The majority of these catastrophic failures occur at low mileages, very low mileages typically well under 36k miles. Once we move up in mileage an LSPI failure is more likely due to buildup of deposits which may or may NOT be related to maintenance.

You can maintain your vehicle very well and still have an LSPI failure if your oil is prone to boil off and high in additives that contribute to LSPI. Calcium is a big one, but there are other additives.

One cannot look at the calcium content alone, boil off rate and calcium content determines how much has the potential to get into the combustion chamber. An oil is say nearly 4000 ppm of calcium but with a NOAC rating of 7 will not result in any higher calcium deposits than an oil with only 2000 ppm but a NOAC rating of 14 (2 x the boil off mass).

The current formation of signature series has around 3700 ppm vs. the Motorcraft OE oil at 2400 ppm. However it's NOAC score is only 7 on a scale of 0 - 15. I believe the Motorcraft is in the 12's on the NOAC.

Added cooling (oil cooler + PP Radiator if you have a base model) will significantly reduce the risk of LSPI when combined with high resistance to boil off types of oils which is what I have been preaching for a while now.

But that combination (cooling) with an LSPI immune oil (formulation does not contain additives that can cause LSPI, hence the primary contibutor, oil additives, is no longer present) that also has low boil off rates is a gold mine of performance.

If you throw a rod then with a tune, the only factors are fuel quality, tune safety and weather or not there was a factory manufacturing defect. You have control over two of them and you can test the third by spending an extra $500 and a years worth of patience by using the Ford Performance Calibration as testing software for the engine's mechanical integrity.

I still have the Ford Performance Calibration installedon my EB, but once the new formulation comes out in September I'll be switching over to it and then once I hit 36k miles I'll switch over to Livernois 91.

By the way I did find one recent failure of an F-150 with a Livernois 87 octane calibration that threw a rod: https://www.f150forum.com/f118/eb-3-5-rod-through-block-10k-livernois-tune-385424/

That is the only dirt I have ever found on them. The failure occurred very early one, at only 10k miles, truck was tuned at 3k miles. OP claims he was running 91 octane on their 87 octane tune. However, there's no evidence as to what the actual cause was, no photos or final diagnosis other than a rod snapped. We've seen a decent amount of stock 3.7L EB's throw rods, this occurs most often at very low mileage and at low RPM which is prime LSPI failure territory. Usually under light throttle. Piston is usually not cracked or pitted, just the rod snaps then punches a hole in the block. With the 3.7 some might be hydro-lock related from back when they had the FMIC issues, rod defects and LSPI, low RPM and light or partial throttle are common factor, tuned or stock but a surprising number stock have thrown rods.

It may also be related to that whole infant mortality thing I keep warning against. A materials defect in a rod would likely show up rather quickly. One guy lost a bone stock engine at 37k, they installed a new short block under warranty and that engine blew in just 2k. Because they re-used the top of the block including fueling, they found out after the second block failed (same way, #3 and #6 pistons) it was due to a defect in the fueling system.

Regardless, this OP did fail an engine and with a Livernois tune on it regardless of the cause. Strangely enough he actually was able to get a new short block under warranty.

I think woodshop's Tune+ tuned 2.3L that blew while under partial throttle during an on ramp (normal driving) is also LSPI related, he had about 29k miles if memory serves correctly. When these engines are tuned, they move closer to LSPI prime conditions and I honestly believe that's a big reason the current cars are so conservatively tuned because current oils have LSPI inducing additives and it wasn't fully understood until just the last couple of years, so oil suppliers haven't been able to come up with anti-LSPI formulations (that and there was no standard test set until recently).

So I think this is VERY big news, especially for ANYONE who is tuned on a daily driver. Even with a warranty preserving calibration like the FP calibration, while it may be covered under warranty, it would still be a massive headache to have to have an engine replaced if it popped. I think AMSOIL's (and any that follow) is a really good idea to take that out of the equation. I would wager that even regular knock may be reduced. I have no doubt that the additives causing LSPI can also induce less severe forms of knock (aka auto ignition). So you may see better OAR values strangely enough from an oil change.

http://www.amsoil.com/lander/lspi-update/

By the way, I also found a 449 page engineering research paper (european auto manufactures) comprising seminars from quite a few major players. It turns out that MAHLE was heavily involved in LSPI research and designing pistons which are highly resistance to knock and super knock. Kind of interesting that Ford had MAHLE design the pistons for the 2.3L Ecoboost: http://www.fordnxt.com/news/getting-the-lowdown-on-ecoboost-piston-design-with-mahle/

Written by two guys at the iAU who cited a collective of information from 82 other engines (written for the 4th Conference on SI Engine Knock) who have done testing on LSPI including GM's testing and test engine with two actual in cylinder endoscopes with lots of cool photos of actual LSPI occurring in real time inside the combustion chamber. There's no doubt it's caused by deposits from the oil creating hot spots which actually are visibly glowing hot (think embers from a fire). This was from Berlin Germany at the tail end of 2013.

Here's why the factory engines run pig rich (directly from the research paper):

As a countermeasure it is possible to operate with a rich, over-stoichiometric
mixture. The air-fuel mixture is cooled by the enthalpy of vaporization
of the liquid gasoline in the combustion chamber.. The described cooling
effect is also used to diminish the thermal overstress of the exhaust valves
and the turbocharger during high load.
Although this is effective, but absolutely not fuel efficient.
This so called enrichment opens the gap between stated and real fuel
consumption during acceleration and operation modes, which requires a
high engine output. This mismatch is difficult to communicate to the customers
and the legislation authorities.

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Here is the paper: https://www.iav.com/sites/default/files/veranstaltung/25/publications/34242_iav_ottomotorisches_klopfen_ans.pdf

You selling AMSOIL Now ?

Brian V said:

You selling AMSOIL Now ?

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Nope. Just that they are the only ones currently on the market with a solution to a problem that has been prevalent in TDI engines for quite some time.

But your welcome to have fun increasing your risk of throwing a rod if you want :headbonk:

I thought people might be excited to know there is a risk reducer for those running tunes, from ANY tuner, weather it is Ford, Ford Performance, Livernois, Lund, Tune+, Unleashed, Bama etc.

It's one more variable or risk you can eliminate. Traditional Knock is easily correctable and detectable with proper tuning, LSPI is NOT. Making more power and getting better fuel economy are generally mutually exclusive from protecting against LSPI in TDI engines without oil reformulation. Take out the catalyst and a whole world of power and efficiency is opened up. Likelihood of throwing a rod for anyone pushing more power is also significantly reduced as it becomes a non-factor. That was my primary motivation in going with the Ford Performance Calibration, if an LPSI failure occurs it's covered and they likely run it pig rich to mitigate that risk as much as tuning can. But the cost is limited performance gains and reduced fuel economy.

I'm always excited about new oil stuff, regardless of brand.

Just to let you know that Stochastic Preignition has been around for a century. And AMSOIL IS NOT the leader with the trials concerning the cause and affect of incidental Pre-Ignition in GDI ENGINES or any other engines .

I wish we knew the true lol interval of the failed engines. Has anyone popped an engine who changes the oil every 3500/4500 miles or less?

Brian V said:

Just to let you know that Stochastic Preignition has been around for a century. And AMSOIL IS NOT the leader with the trials concerning the cause and affect of incidental Pre-Ignition in GDI ENGINES or any other engines .

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I never once said they were a leader in understanding pre-ignition or in pre-ignition research at all...I said they are the first to introduce a new oil formulation designed to eliminate the oil related causes of pre-ignition.

Not sure what your problem is with AMSOIL. I don't give a crap if it's AMSOIL or Walmart that comes up with a good oil formulation. All I care about is that there is a good formulation to address this issue which is VERY beneficial for tuned FI engines.

Fuel can also be a contributing factor as well, however fuel related deposits can generally be sufficiently controlled by running leaner. Running leaner (as close to stoich as is safe) is conducive to making more power and achieving better fuel economy while limiting fuel related deposits, but it doesn't have the cooling effect on oil related deposits consequently. In fact it does the opposite for oil related deposits and increases heat which runs us closer to auto ignition territory.

Two are mutually exclusive, so one must eliminated and the oil related issue is the best one to eliminate to achieve better power and fuel efficiency safely. When I was running Livernois 91 I achieved 33 MPG on a 75 mile highway trip and typically averaged around 24 mostly city.

With the FP Calibration I typically hit around 30~31 all highway and am only at about 21~22 city, about the same as stock. But I was at higher risk of LSPI...hence why I stepped backwards until a better solution could be had.

DUNDEM said:

I wish we knew the true lol interval of the failed engines. Has anyone popped an engine who changes the oil every 3500/4500 miles or less?

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Oil change interval has little impact. In fact new oil has more additives than old oil...the issue is simply that oil will get onto the rings, lands and groves and eventually work it's way into the combustion chamber.

The only defense currently is to run it rich like OE or Ford Performance or if you have an auto, to have it down shift at anything more than maybe 10~15% throttle which most autos already do. Alcohol blends likely help alleviate the issue due to the added cooling, but if you push significantly more power your negating the cooling benefit by using it to run the engine harder (which consequently raises average cylinder head temps back up).

Manuals need to just down shift or run the OE / FP Calibrations, at least until you can start running an LSPI resistant oil, then you can drive it like an NA engine. The calibration should not allow unsafe conditions, it has complete control over throttle, fueling and ignition regardless of how much you push the pedal down.

If I can get my hands on this oil, I'll start using it instead of the Pennzoil Ultra Platinum I use now.

TheLion said:

Oil change interval has little impact. In fact new oil has more additives than old oil...the issue is simply that oil will get onto the rings, lands and groves and eventually work it's way into the combustion chamber.

The only defense currently is to run it rich like OE or Ford Performance or if you have an auto, to have it down shift at anything more than maybe 10~15% throttle which most autos already do. Alcohol blends likely help alleviate the issue due to the added cooling, but if you push significantly more power your negating the cooling benefit by using it to run the engine harder (which consequently raises average cylinder head temps back up).

Manuals need to just down shift or run the OE / FP Calibrations, at least until you can start running an LSPI resistant oil, then you can drive it like an NA engine. The calibration should not allow unsafe conditions, it has complete control over throttle, fueling and ignition regardless of how much you push the pedal down.

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I really have to hand it to you for gathering a good grasp of the subject and having the courage to plug AMSOIL as an alternative lubricant for these 2.3 direct injectioned engines .
I have chosen to remain stock as far as Mods go for the engine is concerned .
A better oil with less of the of the potentially accumulative harmfull build ups from the additive packges would be nice ..

In conclusion a cleaner oil is not always condussive to a heathy engine and I can live with a little sludge as long as I change it at the proper intervals . So here call this guy up he'll tell ya everything you need to know about your subject and topic ...( Andrei Pop )

metalhead79 said:

If I can get my hands on this oil, I'll start using it instead of the Pennzoil Ultra Platinum I use now.

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http://www.amsoil.com/offers/pc.aspx