Questioning Gen 2 voodoo reliability

[JAJ]

We’re on the same page - I’m simply proving a point using even the most generous of interpretations. Regardless of what Ford acknowledges or not, to me, the changes are significant enough to warrant some reasonable designation. Whether you call it Gen 2, a refresh, an update, whatever the **** you wanna call it, it’s different. Some changes for ease to GT500, others for durability / addressing issues. But reasoning aside, it’s different, and different warrants designation.

The problem with a Gen 1/Gen 2 designation is that there were component changes in the Voodoo from the beginning of the 2017 model year onwards. They changed a bunch of stuff, pistons, rings, bearings, fuel rails, oil filter (twice) and its housing (once) and so on. Changes came pretty much production run by production run, and so the idea that there are two generations doesn't really mean anything. If you go change by change, there were probably 10 or 12 generations. Even the 2019/20 engines weren't all the same.

As for the failures, infant failures of high oil consumption failures clustered in MY2017/18 probably rise to the top of the heap. Other failures, like broken oil pumps are harder to diagnose. Our friend @honeybadger had a small chunk broken off of a valve spring in his engine, and the metal chunk went through the oil pump but didn't get between the rotors so the pump didn't fail spectacularly as others have done. "A weak oil pump" would have taken the blame if it had been smashed by the metal fragment and we'd never have known about the broken valve spring. And so it goes - there were a fair number of failures, but we'll never know how many were design issues and how many were supply chain updates gone wrong.

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[NPTR]

I’d be interested in reading more about what you mean by taking care of those nuances.

but it does sound like you think it’s very much not a daily driver car ?

So much out there on the nuances, and don’t have the time now to pull them all together but it’s all stuff that’s likely common knowledge to you at this point, but likely not many others who bought this car because it’s the baddest Mustang without fully understanding what kind of machine it really is. For example, first one I sat in, guy fired it up cold in the garage, drove away in 10 seconds and had it up to 8K RPM after about 20 seconds of driving on a quick loop around the block, revved the engine hard several times in the driveway, and shut the car off. You think that guy understood the necessity of a proper warmup in a car like this? You think he was checking his oil at gas fill ups? Or watching that pesky ‘17 oil filter for backing out? I doubt it. Another one I know is modded to high hell. Neither of them forum members. Either of those guys have a failure, theyd sign onto a forum like this, shrug their shoulders and throw the book at Ford.

Again I’m not saying Ford is innocent - they took a big swing on producing a revolutionary machine like this, and this conversation is exactly why so few automakers take risks like this any more…

Would be awesome if we had some central repository of failures with key info - model year, owner history (if used, mileage of ownership), actual track time, warm up procedure followed, oil check routine, engine builder (not to flame these guys, but good to know), recall history, etc.

Also so many of the 2020 failures were for the timing chain issue that was remedied, and many of those early 2020 failure threads on here are still out there and searchable with guys not realizing that issue was resolved and put to bed.

Do I think a 350 is a daily? No, I personally don’t…while a lot of that is massively subjective, I just don’t think that’s what this car was designed / developed for. Doesn’t mean you can’t do it…you can also hunt for rabbit with an AR10 or put your oil drain plug on with an impact wrench, doesn’t make it the right tool for the job. I personally feel these cars are healthier when driven the way they were intended - proper warmup, spirited driving, proper cooldown, etc. I also have an M2 and while that’s more daily-able IMO (rear seat, less special but less temperamental and more common engine, etc), it’s still not something I’d daily. My daily is a Tacoma TRD Pro - 4 doors, all weather, bed, turn the key and go, can’t kill it. When I was younger though my daily was a slammed M3, or an 03 Mach 1 with straight pipes, or a stage 2 STi on meth…none of which I would consider dailies anymore haha

 

[NPTR]

The problem with a Gen 1/Gen 2 designation is that there were component changes in the Voodoo from the beginning of the 2017 model year onwards. They changed a bunch of stuff, pistons, rings, bearings, fuel rails, oil filter (twice) and its housing (once) and so on. Changes came pretty much production run by production run, and so the idea that there are two generations doesn't really mean anything. If you go change by change, there were probably 10 or 12 generations. Even the 2019/20 engines weren't all the same.

As for the failures, infant failures of high oil consumption failures clustered in MY2017/18 probably rise to the top of the heap. Other failures, like broken oil pumps are harder to diagnose. Our friend @honeybadger had a small chunk broken off of a valve spring in his engine, and the metal chunk went through the oil pump but didn't get between the rotors so the pump didn't fail spectacularly as others have done. "A weak oil pump" would have taken the blame if it had been smashed by the metal fragment and we'd never have known about the broken valve spring. And so it goes - there were a fair number of failures, but we'll never know how many were design issues and how many were supply chain updates gone wrong.

Very good / fair point on the generations - now that’s the first explanation I’ve seen that is convincing and makes sense. More of an evolution over time, and not some hard designation…You’ve convinced me. Now what would be awesome to see and something I’ll work on eventually is a thread on exact / confirmed changes by model year…everything in one simple spot. Little project when I get a breather.

 

[svttim]

The problem with a Gen 1/Gen 2 designation is that there were component changes in the Voodoo from the beginning of the 2017 model year onwards. They changed a bunch of stuff, pistons, rings, bearings, fuel rails, oil filter (twice) and its housing (once) and so on. Changes came pretty much production run by production run, and so the idea that there are two generations doesn't really mean anything. If you go change by change, there were probably 10 or 12 generations. Even the 2019/20 engines weren't all the same.

As for the failures, infant failures of high oil consumption failures clustered in MY2017/18 probably rise to the top of the heap. Other failures, like broken oil pumps are harder to diagnose. Our friend @honeybadger had a small chunk broken off of a valve spring in his engine, and the metal chunk went through the oil pump but didn't get between the rotors so the pump didn't fail spectacularly as others have done. "A weak oil pump" would have taken the blame if it had been smashed by the metal fragment and we'd never have known about the broken valve spring. And so it goes - there were a fair number of failures, but we'll never know how many were design issues and how many were supply chain updates gone wrong.

You're correct however, there were relatively major changes in 19. The other changes you mentioned were gradual but certainly significant. The 19 changes were a result of the upcoming GT500. Even with the CPC it added stress to the engine. The cylinder heads changed as well to address failures. As others have pointed out, 20s had some valve issues that was traced to a supplier. I bleed Ford blue but you can't ignore the quality issues across the Ford line of vehicles

 

[Angrey]

You're correct however, there were relatively major changes in 19. The other changes you mentioned were gradual but certainly significant. The 19 changes were a result of the upcoming GT500. Even with the CPC it added stress to the engine. The cylinder heads changed as well to address failures. As others have pointed out, 20s had some valve issues that was traced to a supplier. I bleed Ford blue but you can't ignore the quality issues across the Ford line of vehicles

Ford is isht, just like the rest of them. They don't address glaring quality issues until it becomes economically sensible to do so.

It's not conspiracist to conclude that OEM's aren't just NOT addressing failures at this point, but the idea that failures with a distribution centered near or post warranty period aren't just NOT worth resolving, they're actually profit centers for them.

To say that if they could (and they certainly can) feature components that fail after warranty period that they wouldn't is naive. The repairs are profit centers along the entire value stream (from stealership service departments to component suppliers).

Ford has had NUMEROUS, KNOWN quality issues that they simply ignored, in some cases for DECADES. From corrosion pockets in paint to shite evaporator cores and compressors to the infamous MT-82 Getrag disaster, not only did Ford NOT address them in many cases they renewed supply contracts with the same companies and the same faulty components.

All car manufacturers love it when their stuff breaks after warranty. It spurs you to upgrade or renew to another product sale and even if you don't do that, it feeds the dealers and suppliers.

To say that there's some sorta actuarial calculation (vis a vis Fight Club) where they examine the cost of a recall or a part change in the next model, they examine how much exposure to class action that would cost, they examine how much the change would cost and if all of that doesn't add up to greatly exceed the cost of warranty claims, we get stuck with the shitty parts.

If you think I'm bitching about Ford, I am. But the only defense I can offer is that virtually all of them do it now.

I have door lock actuators on my 4Runner that don't work. It's about $1200 to "fix" both of them. Of course they were fine when it was under warranty. It's a well known problem.

 

[JAJ]

You're correct however, there were relatively major changes in 19. The other changes you mentioned were gradual but certainly significant. The 19 changes were a result of the upcoming GT500. Even with the CPC it added stress to the engine. The cylinder heads changed as well to address failures. As others have pointed out, 20s had some valve issues that was traced to a supplier. I bleed Ford blue but you can't ignore the quality issues across the Ford line of vehicles

Fair enough. The way I've looked at it is that FP engineers developed and qualified the Voodoo and then they turned it over to Ford to produce. Over time, an engineering group, which may not have been FP, made running changes to the engine. Quality seemed to be quite variable. Then, as the GT500 is moving out of the workshop into the production line, GT500 engine parts, again engineered by FP engineers, find their way into the Voodoo and the Voodoo starts working better. Were the two engines with the highest percentage of engineering done directly by FP the best of the Voodoo production run? The 2016's seem to be pretty good, and the 19's and 20's too. The 2017's and 18's seem to have the most problems.

 

[svttim]

Fair enough. The way I've looked at it is that FP engineers developed and qualified the Voodoo and then they turned it over to Ford to produce. Over time, an engineering group, which may not have been FP, made running changes to the engine. Quality seemed to be quite variable. Then, as the GT500 is moving out of the workshop into the production line, GT500 engine parts, again engineered by FP engineers, find their way into the Voodoo and the Voodoo starts working better. Were the two engines with the highest percentage of engineering done directly by FP the best of the Voodoo production run? The 2016's seem to be pretty good, and the 19's and 20's too. The 2017's and 18's seem to have the most problems.

I had a 16 and it was solid. Sold it to a friend and still going strong.

 

[TonyNJ]

No offense. But this has been gone over at nauseum.

And here we are 9 pages in.

There's another thread on the forum right now about "350 or 500 for the long term". Both started by this same OP that just signed up to M6G this month. It devolves into the same old reliability arguments. I'm starting think these posts/threads are started by the same trolls who get banned and come back to cause disention in the ranks. Stirring the proverbial flat plane pot.

Gtfowtbs. Out

 

[swoop1156]

Give the car the FULL SAUCE every once in awhile.

Just wanted to say you made me snort reading this. I fully agree, no matter what you're driving. Absolutely needs FULL SAUCE every now and then! Everything!

That's all.

/end

 

[Angrey]

Just wanted to say you made me snort reading this. I fully agree, no matter what you're driving. Absolutely needs FULL SAUCE every now and then! Everything!

That's all.

/end

Yeah, there's full sauce and then there's FULL SAUCE. I've taken my car to the top of 5th (with 4.09's) when it was still N/A and tried to shift into 6th but the stock clutch said, "nah, I'm tired boss".

I think the rings see the most pressure and loading in nice long pulls in 4th and 5th gear.

The engine builder who did my heads said in order to fully seat the rings, they have to see the loading of a higher gear across the mid range of rpm.

 

[swoop1156]

Yeah, there's full sauce and then there's FULL SAUCE. I've taken my car to the top of 5th (with 4.09's) when it was still N/A and tried to shift into 6th but the stock clutch said, "nah, I'm tired boss".

I think the rings see the most pressure and loading in nice long pulls in 4th and 5th gear.

The engine builder who did my heads said in order to fully seat the rings, they have to see the loading of a higher gear across the mid range of rpm.

The rings on my Raptor must be fully seated in the upright position with the tray tables up and locked.

 

[rush0024]

So much out there on the nuances, and don’t have the time now to pull them all together but it’s all stuff that’s likely common knowledge to you at this point, but likely not many others who bought this car because it’s the baddest Mustang without fully understanding what kind of machine it really is. For example, first one I sat in, guy fired it up cold in the garage, drove away in 10 seconds and had it up to 8K RPM after about 20 seconds of driving on a quick loop around the block, revved the engine hard several times in the driveway, and shut the car off. You think that guy understood the necessity of a proper warmup in a car like this? You think he was checking his oil at gas fill ups? Or watching that pesky ‘17 oil filter for backing out? I doubt it. Another one I know is modded to high hell. Neither of them forum members. Either of those guys have a failure, theyd sign onto a forum like this, shrug their shoulders and throw the book at Ford.

Again I’m not saying Ford is innocent - they took a big swing on producing a revolutionary machine like this, and this conversation is exactly why so few automakers take risks like this any more…

Would be awesome if we had some central repository of failures with key info - model year, owner history (if used, mileage of ownership), actual track time, warm up procedure followed, oil check routine, engine builder (not to flame these guys, but good to know), recall history, etc.

Also so many of the 2020 failures were for the timing chain issue that was remedied, and many of those early 2020 failure threads on here are still out there and searchable with guys not realizing that issue was resolved and put to bed.

Do I think a 350 is a daily? No, I personally don’t…while a lot of that is massively subjective, I just don’t think that’s what this car was designed / developed for. Doesn’t mean you can’t do it…you can also hunt for rabbit with an AR10 or put your oil drain plug on with an impact wrench, doesn’t make it the right tool for the job. I personally feel these cars are healthier when driven the way they were intended - proper warmup, spirited driving, proper cooldown, etc. I also have an M2 and while that’s more daily-able IMO (rear seat, less special but less temperamental and more common engine, etc), it’s still not something I’d daily. My daily is a Tacoma TRD Pro - 4 doors, all weather, bed, turn the key and go, can’t kill it. When I was younger though my daily was a slammed M3, or an 03 Mach 1 with straight pipes, or a stage 2 STi on meth…none of which I would consider dailies anymore haha

Just curious as to what you mean by a proper cool down? I'll open the hood on really hot days and let the engine cool off faster. But that's about it.

 

[Angrey]

I have no data, but I'm convinced that a good number of the engine replacements are anchored around two issues. People that treat the car like a mini van and don't let it warm fully and end up with consumption issues and a 12:1 compression motor hoping and relying on the consistency of pump gasoline (with no direct injection protections).

Between oil consumption replacements and the inevitable engine failures (that even GM is seeing on their 12.5:1 motors) with knock and crappy pump 93, I think that accounts for a big chunk of the issues.

I think some lesser chunks of the issue are things like oil pump gears (which plagued all coyote variants, not just the voodoo), and things like the oil filter and oil pressure sensor backing off and dumping the oil and nuking the motor.

I'm betting if you take those out, there's probably a minority of things like valves dropping, etc.

Granted, you can do high compression on pump gas, IF you don't try to wring out the most power possible and you tune it conservatively. My personal opinion is that Ford's calibration relies on knock sensors, but not enough. It has caps on how much fuel the short term trims can adjust and it has caps on how much timing can be adjusted for KS activity, but Ford must have decided that there's a balance between engine protections and a bunch of frustrated owners who are getting engine codes and limp modes all the time for bad fuel. IN summary, I think the OE calibration should have been way more aggressive in it's protections. If you're motor is seeing markedly more knock than usual, IN MY OPINION, the calibration should either limit the driver or at least warn them (rather than just getting to the end of the adjustments with a sad face that the motor is smoked.)

I'd rather have a check engine light pop up to warn me that maybe that last batch of fuel isn't so great, take it easy.

Case in point is the TPMS system.

I recently avoided what might have been terrible, possibly even DEADLY. I had swapped out the rear set for my drag radial set and it was the first time taking them out this year. It was particularly cold (for us here) and I checked the pressure on all 4. I went to the gas station a couple miles away to fuel up and I was on my way to meet up with some friends and do some "Spirited" pulls.

LUCKILY, I wanted to check the tire pressure (being more concerned about the rear) and as I got out onto the boulevard and I was JUST merging, I noticed that one of my front tires was way lower than the other. "That's weird, what's going on." Then I watched it drop from 24 psi, 22 psi, 20 psi and thought, oh shit, I must have a leak. By the time I got to the first exit and waited at a stop light to get to a service station, it was down below 15 psi. The engine light didn't come on until it read below 14 psi.

Why oh WHY doesn't Ford have simple logic where if there's a noticeable change in a short period of time it WARNS the driver. Instead, it waited until things were so bad/obvious that by that time, on the front tire, I could have been sent into a crash? The inside sidewall had failed and was compromised and had I been doing excessive speed, it's likely it would have been a rapid failure.

My point is, Ford's protections are largely too reactionary and not proactive enough.

I'm on MOTEC now and the protections are wonderful. It doesn't wait for the oil pressure to bottom out before it says "hey man, we know it's way too late, but you've lost oil pressure." Or knock activity or all sorts of protections that are very proactive in that if it recognizes a significant/rapid change, it won't allow me to flog the motor. It goes into a reduced/limp mode, even if the input signal is quite all the way to "too low."

If you're going to run 12:1 compression and roll the dice on pump gasoline, you can't afford to be reactionary, especially if you're trying to get near the edge of max performance. Ford's protections are usually WAY too late to say "hey, looks like something is wrong here, take it easy till we figure this out." It runs to the end of fuel trims or KS adjustments and by then it may be sad faces all around.

 

[wingnutt]

Just curious as to what you mean by a proper cool down? I'll open the hood on really hot days and let the engine cool off faster. But that's about it.

proper cooldown would mean…after a good flogging, take the last couple miles easy and let the EGTs, CHTs and the like come down from peak temps before shutting down

 

[BreadBurner]

Might as well add my 2 cents. I have owned a 16 and the 19. Both are still running strong. A source at Ford, who will not be named for obvious reasons has told me they had about a 4% failure rate for Gen 1 and about 1% for Gen 2. Take that for what its worth. There has been extensive research here that highlights the differences between generations. There were changes made for reliability issues. The race teams that used the Vodoo stopped using they because the do take more maintenance AND IMSA puts restrictions to make sure everyone is competitive. There was no advantage to the Vodoo at that point. But, they also won the Championship. For a track car there is no better. Having driven both the coyote and the vodoo on track the coyote in stock form feels like a dog. But for street use, Id probably opt for the Mach 1.

"the coyote in stock form feels like a dog"
Would you be able to elaborate more on this?

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