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69mach1-395
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What channel?
Hack
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I haven't been watching. I watched a tiny bit of the first episode and then decided it wasn't for me. Have you enjoyed the episodes so far?
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TnWHTMARE
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- #5
I think I watch it because I love these cars and its interesting to critique what they do. So many of their decisions are driven by marketing that it makes it hard to take much of what is out there seriously. But Ron from Vengeance Racing was on there along with their tuner, Mike. My last Camaro had a Vengeance Cam and they have a pretty cool shop and great folks to talk to. So it was kinda cool seeing them on. To me, the guys doing the Mustang are just not as professionally up to speed as the Camaro and the Challenger teams. You have to cut through alot of useless footage, imho, to get to some of the good stuff.
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bnightstar
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I watch them all. I'm surprised that the Challenger made the worst power on the dyno. I'm sure the Mustang will be more than 870 to the wheels though the LS1 engine is the one usually going higher. I think it's amazing that a stock block Mustang GT makes more than 800 WHP. Also from other youtube experiments I know that Coyote reaches around 1000 HP on the crank when the LS1 can spin up to 1200HP. So there is something wrong with the LS1 tune as well.
Hack
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IIRC the LS1 crank is good to about 450 hp.
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TnWHTMARE
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I thought they said those were "preliminary" numbers? We will see on the 5.0. Kinda worried since I think they are only running slightly better fuel than pump gas. Might be a bit more of an issue for the 5.0 with the compression ratio. This is an LT1 not an LS1.
Hack
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ah LT1 must be able to make more power than the LS1. The LS1 was good about 20 years ago, but the power production is low for today's standards.
From what I saw in the early episodes, the rules were set up to favor the French car.
bnightstar
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I think they said that is equivalent to 91 pump gas but more stable than pump gas so that's why they use it and yup those are preliminary numbers but will be very close between the Camaro and the Mustang. Sorry not familiar with the Camaro engine markings my point was that the Camaro engine usually makes more power.
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CrashOverride
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I hadn't heard about this, but thank you for the link.
DekiDoo
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Thanks for posting this, I just started it.
CrashOverride
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Just finished watching it.
[spoiler alert]
There are a dozen different ways to look at it. At the end of the day, the Camaro is lighter, has a bigger engine and performed the best.
Camaro - 3773 - (Car & Driver)
Mustang - 3821 - (Car & Driver)
Challenger (392 Scat Pack) - 4250-4300 (Motor Trend)
Rules were rules on the autocross, and the average was the right way to do it. But, I bet you could take a car with $2000 worth of suspension mods and make the same numbers on the autocross - engine work not needed. They really should have tested them on a road race track where the power and durability were tested. Hammering a car on/off at no more than probably 3rd gear for under one minute doesn't say much.
Also, this was more of a tuner/team test than anything. I think it would have been much better to allow each team to work the bugs out for a week or so. Not that it wouldn't have prevented the Camaro from doing even better, but it was clear the Ford and Dodge team had a crap ton of tuning issues.
Another way of looking at it. If one only had enough money to buy a blower kit, who would have won? The Camaro and Dodge needed a lot of engine work to handle the power. The mustang probably could have made it even without the oil gears, but it was a smart investment. On the same regard, depending on how you want to look at it, the Dodge and Ford guys are at a huge disadvantage when it comes to engine parts. There just isn't much out there that is off the shelf. Call it what you will -- Ford/Mopar is expensive, low volume, built so well, etc... There is no way either Ford/Mopar could replicate the parts swap that the Camaro did for anywhere near the price.
I was shocked at how well the Challenger did on the autocross. Imagine if DCX actually made the engine out of a nonmagnetic material, and put the pig on a diet. It did amazingly well.
Off topic, but I hate how these car shows (This, power nation, etc...) all blatantly push advertising to the max. You can say we're running Nitto XYZ's and leave it at that - you don't need to do a miss america speech on how the tires solved the hunger crisis or cured cancer. Heck, put up a build sheet with links to the parts and be done with it.
It was still entertaining though and despite tuning problems, pretty darn impressive for all 3 cars.
[spoiler alert]
There are a dozen different ways to look at it. At the end of the day, the Camaro is lighter, has a bigger engine and performed the best.
Camaro - 3773 - (Car & Driver)
Mustang - 3821 - (Car & Driver)
Challenger (392 Scat Pack) - 4250-4300 (Motor Trend)
Rules were rules on the autocross, and the average was the right way to do it. But, I bet you could take a car with $2000 worth of suspension mods and make the same numbers on the autocross - engine work not needed. They really should have tested them on a road race track where the power and durability were tested. Hammering a car on/off at no more than probably 3rd gear for under one minute doesn't say much.
Also, this was more of a tuner/team test than anything. I think it would have been much better to allow each team to work the bugs out for a week or so. Not that it wouldn't have prevented the Camaro from doing even better, but it was clear the Ford and Dodge team had a crap ton of tuning issues.
Another way of looking at it. If one only had enough money to buy a blower kit, who would have won? The Camaro and Dodge needed a lot of engine work to handle the power. The mustang probably could have made it even without the oil gears, but it was a smart investment. On the same regard, depending on how you want to look at it, the Dodge and Ford guys are at a huge disadvantage when it comes to engine parts. There just isn't much out there that is off the shelf. Call it what you will -- Ford/Mopar is expensive, low volume, built so well, etc... There is no way either Ford/Mopar could replicate the parts swap that the Camaro did for anywhere near the price.
I was shocked at how well the Challenger did on the autocross. Imagine if DCX actually made the engine out of a nonmagnetic material, and put the pig on a diet. It did amazingly well.
Off topic, but I hate how these car shows (This, power nation, etc...) all blatantly push advertising to the max. You can say we're running Nitto XYZ's and leave it at that - you don't need to do a miss america speech on how the tires solved the hunger crisis or cured cancer. Heck, put up a build sheet with links to the parts and be done with it.
It was still entertaining though and despite tuning problems, pretty darn impressive for all 3 cars.
OP
OP
TnWHTMARE
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- Thread starter
- #15
Yup, very well said. I know people hate on the Camaro but its a well rounded car.
Couple of points:
1) Vengeance Racing (of whom I am a previous customer and spent a couple of hours with Mike on their dyno) is a pretty solid operation. They produce some pretty quick stuff. I dont know the Dodge guys but they "seem" to be solid in their knowledge. Call me ignorant but it seems they could have chosen a much better group of guys to represent the Mustang, Ford NXT, a magazine?? as opposed to a dedicated performance shop???. (Ya know, someone like Steeda...)
2) It would have been nice for them to have said 10k and not supplied a supercharger.
3) Strong showing for the Mustang hp wise.
4) Curious as to how the guy driving the Mustang was "leaving" at 3500 RPM with a factory stall???
5) Yes, big surprise from the Dodge, might have been a different ending if they had the bugs worked out. But that brake test seemed a bit over the top. I mean, what, 12 feet!!?? Something almost seems off there. Thats huge.
Kinda fun to watch but in the real world, the fact that the Mustang can both handle and make substantial power without opening the engine is a huge advantage. If I remember correctly, Ron said the LT1 ran out of reliability past 625 at the tire. This is a real world problem if true because it necessitates an additional major investment dollar wise for the Camaro to keep up power wise with the stock 5.0. That being said, I am not knocking Camaro as I personally love the car also. Just an observation.
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