Sponsored

7m Americans 90 days late on car payments...

Bull Run

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2017
Threads
64
Messages
983
Reaction score
632
Location
AZ
Vehicle(s)
2015 Mustang EB Prem PP
The car loan issues is just one of many indicators.
Check out our national dept....
Check out the student loan situation
Check out the military benefits owed that yet have yet to be realized....
Wait...wait....the baby boomers heading to retirement....
These make the housing bubble look like a walk in the park.
I think that a bigger shock will happen when people with a large portion of their retirement in Roth IRAs and 401ks retire. I think that politicians created them to increase tax revenue now without increasing taxes (a political suicide), fully knowing that they'll be long gone when it's time for the younger generation to retire with a larger portion of their retirement in Roth IRAs and 401ks.
Sponsored

 

Kong76

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2016
Threads
47
Messages
1,925
Reaction score
442
Location
Turlock, Ca
Vehicle(s)
2016 Ingot Silver GT
I'm one of the "fools" that pays cash. There is a reason why dealerships and stores offer 0% finance and it's not for your benefit. I'm not saying your thoughts are wrong since this is one of those situations where there may be more than one right answer. I think the article below can explain it better than I can but here are my main points have no debt:

1. Used cars don't come with 0% financing (even if there is, it's not common), probably because they don't make as much money off of them.
2. Price negotiation is much easier when you can just focus on the OTD pricing, and take the interest rate, monthly payment, and downpayment out of the equation.
3. No need for any gap insurance since you'll never be upside down.
4. Having the title on hand makes car selling easier.
5. Simplifies life by having fewer bills to track.
6. Increases the effective duration of the emergency fund. I left my emergency fund level untouched and it's effectiveness went from 6 months to about 2 years simply by reducing the number of bills to pay.
7. Increases I what a call the monthly "discretionary" fund, which is money left over after accounting for the bills, taxes, and "paying myself first" (retirement and 529 accounts contribution, and 10% toward taxable investments). This allowed me to have guilt funds for fun stuff without having to budget. Thing like donations, gifts, family vacations, car parts, and other hobbies come out of the discretionary fund and I used whatever's leftover to pay off the mortgage early (which greatly increased monthly discretionary fund even more). Now the leftovers go to taxable investment accounts.
8. I fully understand that stocks earn more than interest paid on low-interest loans and therefore, the vast majority of my investments are in stocks or stock funds. However, the earnings gap decreases when you factor in taxes on gains and the fact that the interest on loans is paid with after-tax money. Also, stock market gains are not steady and monthly loan payment amounts don't go down when the market's down. I was young and only started investing for a few years when the crash of 2008 occurred. The total amount that I lost was relatively small because I didn't have a large account, but losing 30-40% was still unsettling. I saw older friends and family members go into foreclosure and bankruptcy, and also relationships being ruined. I held on and stayed the course but many retirees that didn't rebalance their accounts during the bull market ended up hurting the most since they had to sell while the market was down for their living expenses.
9. My mortgage rate was 3.15%. Given my marginal tax rate, an investment needs to earn 4.7% (pre-tax) to break even and I don't know of any investments can guaranty that kind of return.
10. On the flip side, I'd say the money saved on interest is similar to learnings from bonds, so this allows me to invest more heavily on the stock side with an equivalent risk of someone with a larger amount of bonds and cash in their portfolio.
11. None of the books and research articles on "average" millionaires showed using low or 0% car or furniture loans as a pathway to building wealth. They usually have a distaste for debt with an exception for loans for investment properties, but those usually appreciate in value and generate income, unlike cars or furniture

https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/why-i-dont-0-financing-deals/

Used cars have the highest profit margin. I use to sell them. On average they were marked up $5k from our dealer jacket ( auction buy price).
 

Bull Run

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2017
Threads
64
Messages
983
Reaction score
632
Location
AZ
Vehicle(s)
2015 Mustang EB Prem PP
Used cars have the highest profit margin. I use to sell them. On average they were marked up $5k from our dealer jacket ( auction buy price).
Thanks for the info, that margin seems to be close in line with the differences between the KBB trade-in value vs. dealership price for used vehicles. I was able to negotiate $2k off of the sticker price (sticker price was on the low end of the KBB value) the used EB with about 7,600 miles and add $1,000 to my trade-in (the initial offer was middle of the trade in value). I had to shop around but not sure if I got a great deal or if they were motivated to sell since used Mustang EBs and GTs are common around here.

And I guess it's the Ford Credit that finances new cars, do they finance for used cars as well? What are their incentives for dealerships? It wasn't Ford but I had other dealerships pushing 0% interest loans in the past, stating that they can only give me the deal if I took the loan and that I can pay it off right away without penalties. They changed their mind when I told them that I'll just walk away.
 
Last edited:

Cardude99

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2016
Threads
69
Messages
2,473
Reaction score
1,060
Location
Phoenix, AZ
First Name
Sam
Vehicle(s)
2018 Ecoboost
The car loan issues is just one of many indicators.
Check out our national dept....
Check out the student loan situation
Check out the military benefits owed that yet have yet to be realized....
Wait...wait....the baby boomers heading to retirement....
These make the housing bubble look like a walk in the park.
I guess I just don't like to subscribe to the sky is falling philosophy. Always gonna be bad stuff going on. Only time will tell what's going to happen.
 

tom_sprecher

Living Race Car Free
Joined
Jul 2, 2016
Threads
30
Messages
1,226
Reaction score
477
Location
Marietta, GA
Vehicle(s)
2016 GT Premium PP 6MT Race Red
In 2016 we bought 2 new vehicles, the Explorer Sport and the GT. Both were 0% down, the Ex has 0.9% financing, and the Mustang is 0%. Total monthly payment is just under $1800. For us it's not that much because the house was paid off a long time ago, and we are done saving for retirement.

We have a history of keeping our vehicles for much longer than the average guy. The Explorer replaced a 15 yo Expedition we bought new. The GT replaced the F250 my daughter still drives at college.

To be honest we will not keep either of our current vehicles that long because we now have the wherewithal to replace them when we get bored. That's what happens when you get older having spent a lifetime making a good living, saving, and investing much of what you earned.
 

Sponsored

HoosierDaddy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Threads
232
Messages
3,382
Reaction score
7,139
Location
Winchestertonfieldville (ok, Scottsdale), AZ
First Name
Randy
Vehicle(s)
2016 GT Premium PP
If if this story is true (most news now are misleading or made up) it is a very small percentage.
Or........ 7 million people are collectively 90 days late. 90 days is 7,776,000 seconds. So maybe each loan is barely over 1 second late.
 

Bull Run

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2017
Threads
64
Messages
983
Reaction score
632
Location
AZ
Vehicle(s)
2015 Mustang EB Prem PP
In 2016 we bought 2 new vehicles, the Explorer Sport and the GT. Both were 0% down, the Ex has 0.9% financing, and the Mustang is 0%. Total monthly payment is just under $1800. For us it's not that much because the house was paid off a long time ago, and we are done saving for retirement.

We have a history of keeping our vehicles for much longer than the average guy. The Explorer replaced a 15 yo Expedition we bought new. The GT replaced the F250 my daughter still drives at college.

To be honest we will not keep either of our current vehicles that long because we now have the wherewithal to replace them when we get bored. That's what happens when you get older having spent a lifetime making a good living, saving, and investing much of what you earned.
Good to see from a retiree's point of view. May I ask if you opted for 0% and low-interest financing because you're drawing from tax-deferred investment accounts and withdrawing the entire amount of the cost of the cars would've resulted in tax hits greater than the cost 0.9% financing?
 

HoosierDaddy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Threads
232
Messages
3,382
Reaction score
7,139
Location
Winchestertonfieldville (ok, Scottsdale), AZ
First Name
Randy
Vehicle(s)
2016 GT Premium PP
Naw. But if I offer my opinion on men dating men. One guy will come in. And go. I date men. What's wrong with that? And off we go again.
I used to date men. But then the carnival closed down and I couldn't get a job guessing people's age anywhere else.
 

tom_sprecher

Living Race Car Free
Joined
Jul 2, 2016
Threads
30
Messages
1,226
Reaction score
477
Location
Marietta, GA
Vehicle(s)
2016 GT Premium PP 6MT Race Red
Good to see from a retiree's point of view. May I ask if you opted for 0% and low-interest financing because you're drawing from tax-deferred investment accounts and withdrawing the entire amount of the cost of the cars would've resulted in tax hits greater than the cost 0.9% financing?
I'm 57, my wife's 52, and neither of us are retired. We could be, but we like what we do, and more money is always good, right?

We go with 0% down, 0%, or low-interest loans simply because we prefer to use other people's equity at no, or low cost to us. We have been in the market for almost 30 years, and for the past 10 years have kept most (~ 85%) of our portfolio in SPY, DIA or QQQ ETF's that over a 4-5 year period typically have a much higher annual rate of return than 0-0.9%. :wink:

For example, the last 5 year total return for SPY has been 48%. If I would have taken out of the taxable account $40k to pay for a car with cash, I would have realized a $19,200 lost opportunity cost for that same period, not to mention the 15% long term capital gains tax incurred. That's not how to do it.
 

Jetnoise

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2018
Threads
21
Messages
1,373
Reaction score
339
Location
Raleigh NC
Vehicle(s)
2018 GT Premium PP1, 70 Shaker Mach 1 stroker, 1967 F/B 357W, 1968 302 Vert, 4I 85 5.0 B&M Blower
I guess I just don't like to subscribe to the sky is falling philosophy. Always gonna be bad stuff going on. Only time will tell what's going to happen.
The sky isn't falling but it pays to pay attention.....
By the time you hear it on the 6 o'clock news....we are already in trouble.
A major correction is eminent
 

Sponsored

Bull Run

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2017
Threads
64
Messages
983
Reaction score
632
Location
AZ
Vehicle(s)
2015 Mustang EB Prem PP
I'm 57, my wife's 52, and neither of us are retired. We could be, but we like what we do, and more money is always good, right?

We go with 0% down, 0%, or low-interest loans simply because we prefer to use other people's equity at no, or low cost to us. We have been in the market for almost 30 years, and for the past 10 years have kept most (~ 85%) of our portfolio in SPY, DIA or QQQ ETF's that over a 4-5 year period typically have a much higher annual rate of return than 0-0.9%. :wink:

For example, the last 5-year total return for SPY has been 48%. If I would have taken out of the taxable account $40k to pay for a car with cash, I would have realized a $19,200 lost opportunity cost for that same period, not to mention the 15% long term capital gains tax incurred. That's not how to do it.
Thanks for the explanation (I assumed you were retired since you mentioned that you're done saving for retirement) as you have a good specific example of how it can work, already have the house paid off, and are not playing with the retirement money. Probably more risk than I would've taken but I'm usually a little on the conservation side, and when I say cash, I mean short term savings for things that need to be replaced on regularly, like cars, thus capital gains would've not been applied. This is the reason why I don't include cars and other personal belongings for net worth calculations, even though they always have some sort of residual value.

One grip I have with the usual "paying cash is dumb" crowd is that while there's nothing wrong with taking a good deal on the loan, they oversimplify the market return by quoting the average historical return of market (about 9.8% for S&P 500 over the past 90 years) and applying it a car loan lasting 3 to 5 years without considering the risk of short term investing. For example, you mentioned the total return for the last 5 years but I can also easily pick any other 3-5 year periods where that wouldn't be the case. But in your case, you can afford the risk since you're otherwise debt free with the retirement accounts topped off and still have a dual income stream. Not sure if typical consumers utilizing low-interest rate loans have that kind of safety net or even use the interest saved to invest in the first place.

I consider this to be similar to the folks who paid high amounts of ADM for S550 GT350s when they first came out. I don't think there's anything wrong with paying ADM just because they wanted to be one of the first ones to get one, but there were ones that tried to justify it as a wise financial decision by saying that the new GT350's be the collector cars and appreciate in the value. We all know what happened as used GT350's can now be found for starting at only $40K and up.
 

MidwayJ

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2018
Threads
31
Messages
1,612
Reaction score
2,299
Location
Dallas, Texas
First Name
Jay
Vehicle(s)
2019 Mustang GT Coupe
Vehicle Showcase
2
That's what happens when you get older having spent a lifetime making a good living, saving, and investing much of what you earned.
Unfortunately for many, going into significant debt relative to their income impairs their ability to save and invest much of what they earn. Taking advantage of low rate financing to save a few bucks vs. cash is a different consideration than whether the amount of the debt is an unwise financial decision.
 

DIB2016

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2016
Threads
12
Messages
131
Reaction score
51
Location
San Antonio
Vehicle(s)
2020 H.E GT350; 1968 Ford Bronco Sport
I pay 830 a month for my GT350, however my wife's truck is paid off and i have a 68 bronco if crap hits the fan and i need to get rid of the stang.
 

VinnAY

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2016
Threads
16
Messages
1,427
Reaction score
360
Location
Kansas City
Vehicle(s)
18 Camaro 1SS/1LE
Looking like the subprime housing bubble that burst, too many mega loans to people that can't pay it back and shouldn't have gotten loans in those amounts. Selling the whole enchilida on a monthly payment and then people don't see the interest rate, I've been (attempted rape) with an interest rate from a dealer finance dept while carrying an 875 score, people don't pay attention to that part either. And then have no concept of 72/84, even 96 month notes.
Sponsored

 
 




Top