..:: ProCharger Tune Update 06-01-15::..

[Cobra Commander]

My car is still doing the same thing. It ran pretty damn good last night but now it still wants to run funny at the same RPM range. It feels about like when a carbureted car is starving for fuel at top end. I'm definitely going with a Lund tune. The tuner I got from beefcake will be here tomorrow.

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[ProChargerTECH]

I mean ID1000 run about $950

There are many other injectors that don't cost $950.
It seems a few tuners are nearly forcing people to use these ID1000's.

(you can find large quality injectors for half that price)

The larger injector dynamic injector will help maintain pressure though.

An injectors size has no bearing on the fuel pressure, and maintaining it.
Only the pump and voltage to the pump will dictate that.

ProCharger, the few of us still experiencing issues, what are your recommendations? I sent over some data logs a couple of days ago however haven't heard anything back yet.
'

You have heard back, I have posted on this forum that there are right at (3) of you that have the issue. We have data logs, and are working as to seeing what we can find. (Since our cars here don't have the issue, we are trying to recreate it, based on data logs sent to us)

Working on it.

 

[Process]

An injectors size has no bearing on the fuel pressure, and maintaining it.
Only the pump and voltage to the pump will dictate that.

Where you are mostly correct, you are forgetting effective fuel pressure. Your injector can in fact take up slack in a returnless system for a smaller/underpowered pumped.

There are many other injectors that don't cost $950.
It seems a few tuners are nearly forcing people to use these ID1000's.

(you can find large quality injectors for half that price)

this is true, but you end up with improper provided values or they just steal ID's information (I can think of three companies off the bat who does this) where it is not a perfect match for how that injector is flowed. I won't name injector company names. Making people use ID is not a bad thing, it is a good standard to enforce. It is truly a crucial piece in the vehicle tuning, and ID makes it worry-less, with an extremely high quality product.

 

[ProChargerTECH]

Making people use ID is not a bad thing, it is a good standard to enforce.

Never said its "BAD".
Its just an easy way for mail order tuners to simplify things.
However there is absolutely no reason they HAVE to be used.

Whats funny is that its pretty much only the FORD community that are so tied to the "ID" injector craze.
The import guys all gave up and don't care.
The chevy guys don't care and never have.
Big power Dodge's not so much.

It is truly a crucial piece in the vehicle tuning, and ID makes it worry-less, with an extremely high quality product.

While I have nothing against ID, or Deatschwerks injectors.

The truth of the matter is:
For decades, there are 10's of thousands of very good running, high HP cars LONG before these companies came along. (And still plenty that don't use them)

So can a good tuner tune a set of $400 injectors perfect = YES
Can a good tuner tune a set of $950 injectors perfect = YES

 

[Process]

Never said its "BAD".
Its just an easy way for mail order tuners to simplify things.
However there is absolutely no reason they HAVE to be used.

Whats funny is that its pretty much only the FORD community that are so tied to the "ID" injector craze.
The import guys all gave up and don't care.
The chevy guys don't care and never have.
Big power Dodge's not so much.

Not nailing down injector data can cause for some nasty drivability issues. I'd rather spend a few dollars more on an injector that goes through a rigorous testing process and has plenty of data available. It's my preference. I and most people also do not spend $950 on ID1000s, yes that is MAP but I'm not a vendor so I am not held to the secrecy of invoice pricing of such products.

While I have nothing against ID, or Deatschwerks injectors.

The truth of the matter is:
For decades, there are 10's of thousands of very good running, high HP cars LONG before these companies came along. (And still plenty that don't use them)

So can a good tuner tune a set of $400 injectors perfect = YES
Can a good tuner tune a set of $950 injectors perfect = YES

Before ID and Paul did research on injector data etc, a lot of companies had piss poor data and did not have injector characteristics mapped properly, even the OEMs did not. There's a lot of interesting publishings on this same subject and what the research has done for this area of the calibration field.
Many Ford tuners will not devote the time to find injector data while tuning where it's just easy and efficient to just run ID and FRPP.

the $450 vs $950 subject could be applied to superchargers too. We all know Vortech / Paxton are less expensive than Procharger. Can I make 800+hp on vortech v3/jt/paxton 2200 etc? I most certainly can.

Can I make 800+hp with a Procharger D1/F1? Yep, I can as well. Maybe your kit is better built, perhaps you use better supercharger components. Maybe your design has more research and testing involved.

If the $450 injector was the exact same thing as the $750 ID1000 (oops, did I reveal something?) then there would be no need for ID. Alternatively, we wouldn't need procharger either, we would all just run vortech/paxton if they were the exact same thing

 

[ProChargerTECH]

Not nailing down injector data can cause for some nasty drivability issues. I'd rather spend a few dollars more on an injector that goes through a rigorous testing process and has plenty of data available. It's my preference.

Hey man, I get it...
This isn't rocket science....
And I have been around this business for decades....

Tuners/Shops like ID injectors cause they have some mark up in them.
Tuners/Shops also like them, because they have data given to them. (speeds up the tune process)

But those two things listed above come at the cost of the customer.
PERIOD. There is no talking around that one.

Does it help a tuner. (sure)
Does it need to be given (nope)

As stated there are literallllllllllly shops FULL of great running cars in every motorsports shop across the country, that have none-ID injectors.
And plenty of great running car have been running great for decades (since EFI started) before this "data" was given out.

I have never heard of a reputable tuning shop charging a customer more, because they didn't use a certain brand/style/size injector.
All a tuner cares about, is that they injectors are functioning properly and sized correctly.

If your tuner will only tune ID injectors... fine.
If your tuner will tune other brands and sizes...also fine.

The only difference at the end of the day will be the $$$ spent..PERIOD.
But saying they are needed, is absolutely incorrect and false.



PS: Just letting you know I run ID1000's in my personal car. Just so you don't think I am biased.
(never got data for them, don't care, didn't take that long to remap for them, same as any other injector I tune for)
But I will say, it runs the same as it did with $380 injectors in it. ;) same idle, same trims, same power level.
I just wanted a little more "head room" above the units I had before.

 

[Process]

No. But it's like this. You have a tool box with two tools in it.

One tool is better suited for the job, was more expensive and will allow you to do the job faster.

The other will get the job done but add an extra hour or two and may have a steeper operator curve to its use so the job quality COULD be less.

As far as a tuner charging more if you don't use ID. Depends. Perhaps they charge per hour. Perhaps injector data discovery took an extra hour or so and caused odd log readings down stream in the process.

I agree with your points but anytime you can eliminate a variable in the process, why not.

 

[ProChargerTECH]

No. But it's like this. You have a tool box with two tools in it.

One tool is better suited for the job, was more expensive and will allow you to do the job faster.

The other will get the job done but add an extra hour or two and may have a steeper operator curve to its use so the job quality COULD be less.

As far as a tuner charging more if you don't use ID. Depends. Perhaps they charge per hour. Perhaps injector data discovery took an extra hour or so and caused odd log readings down stream in the process.

I agree with your points but anytime you can eliminate a variable in the process, why not.

I agree with your points, but your missing what I am saying.
Here I will use your "tool" analogy.

Say my car needs a water pump, and I was quoted 4 hrs @ $100 per hour for repair.

If the shop uses craftsman tools to get the job done, its $400
If the shop uses Snap-On's top of the line tools, its still $400

They don't charge me more, because they have Snap-On tools.
Nor do I pay more for the new water pump, because of the tools they use.

Most reputable tuners, charge a flat rate for a forced induction tune.
No matter what combo you bring them. (engine, injectors, heads, cam(s), etc)

MAIN POINT:

If your tuner wants to use only ID1000's = thats cool
If your tuner can tune any injector under the sun = thats cool to. (most can and will)

If you want to pay for the ID1000's = thats totally cool
If you want to run another injector = again totally cool

 

[Process]

..:: ProCharger Tune Update ::..

No I caught what you're saying. And your analogy makes perfect sense. Although I was stating one tool could get the job done faster.

Yes this is more prevalent in ford tuning vs other makes. We could sit here for days discussing our theories on why. But that would be way off topic.

What "I" pay for id1000s and most people who know who to buy from the cost difference isn't that much more than a competing vendors 90-100lb injector.

So the next question is, why run anything else?

 

[5.0 Steve]

on your HO complete kit how much horsepower are the 52 pound injectors good for?

 

[Process]

on your HO complete kit how much horsepower are the 52 pound injectors good for?

They say 700. I'd like to see the duty cycle though.

I personally am not a fan of running an injector past 80-85%

 

[TwinTurboMustang.net]

on your HO complete kit how much horsepower are the 52 pound injectors good for?

Somewhere around 625whp ish. Anything after that and I'd switch the injectors for larger ones. Although power can be made, you want it to be safe at high boost/power levels. You don't want the injector to fail or go static at a High IDC.

 

[5.0 Steve]

what's a good injector that's safe for 650 rwhp @10lbs boost that won't break the bank?

 

[michigan stang]

I know P mass is going to start selling 60s and 80s matched to each other with in 2%. very good price.

 

[5.0 Steve]

Are those the Ford injectors?

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