GT350 vs. Z/28

[thePill]

It will be saddled with major weight and restricted to about 400hp if not more. Nascar does not want Ford to dominate. The chevy will receive major rule concessions. Nascar and chevy always does this.........:ford:

One of the issues that started the comeback of Factory Racing in 2009 was the fact that the FR500 and M3 became the only two reasonable options by then. The entire field evolved into a Mustang/M3 competition and nobody wants to watch that for very long... at least there is a very limited crowd.

I'm sure Ford had plans for the Coyote anyway but BMW pressured Grand Am to make Ford comply. Over the span of the season, the Coyote and Boss Programs started. And, as many have noticed, it brought more Factory cars in to compete.

...then came NASCAR and shortly after that the IMSA merger...

In order to keep the car count high and variety among the field, some very non-compliant cars are given nearly free reign.

Now, I am a realist, I know you can't just expect Chevy and Dodge to snap to it and comply so, I think a few years is merited.

..and a few years were taken, from 2009 to 2014, the GS.R proved impotent with a 6.2 and the 5th Gen can't keep pace with a Mustang pound for pound, power for power.

What was the engineering answer to the Boss 302? A 500+HP 7 liter V8 and an additional 250lbs weight reduction allowance.

Now, this thing has gotten out of hand. The GT350 is coming and the M4 will be required to tune the TTV6 up. The 997 and 370z will also need to work up beyond 450hp. The 370z is already using a race engine... Some of these cars will be alienated again... Or the V8's will be restricted to death...

IMSA CTSC has been ruined, I don't think there is any turning back now. All this to answer a car that had no business being there to begin with...

Sponsored

 

[Sabre]

The Boss was developed during the most of the season in 2010. Grand Am allowed them to run a Boss 302 configuration while the Coyote debuted. There is valuable information to gain during a developement season.

2014 was the z28's developement season BUT, they kinda did it backwards. The Z/28.R should have run in 2013 for 2014. Then the z28 should have been homologated from that.

It's not merely satisfying a need to see the car, I feel it would be a better product. Right now they are just following the series and are testing during private sessions, which is great but they could also be in there banging fenders.

No need to be a p@ssy about it... get it out there...

You really are daft aren't you!

You "feel" it would be a better product.

Yeah, I'll get right on the phone to Ford and Multimatic and let them know you "feel" the car would be a better product if they told everyone, "Hey don't mind our car out here...running mid to late pack and not for points or championship or anything. We're just feeling the car out and trying to develop it, while we're banging fenders. Cause ya know, we sit around a lot twiddling our thumbs and we really have nothing better to do than spend our time fixing damaged cars while at the same time sorting out the handling, braking, steering, suspension, etc. Just watch our pretty new Mustang go round the track while we sort it all out."

Ford has a huge investment in this Gen6 Mustang...it ain't going anywhere, until they are sure it's ready.

 

[thePill]

Lol. NASCAR has owned Grand-Am the entire time. :headbonk:


Please tell me more about this V6 M4..... :lol: (It's an Inline-6).

NASCAR bought Grand Am in 2012. (Edit: Deal was done in September 2008, Mustang's first major NASCAR rule enforcement came in 2010). Looks like it was sold completely in 2013. The IMSA merger happened at the end of 2013.

Ok, a TT6. The BMW might return and not use the 4.0 V8. I am not even sure BMW is returning next year.

I would nitpick too if thePill just wiped his ass with my LS7 argument. :lol:

You really are daft aren't you!

You "feel" it would be a better product.

Yeah, I'll get right on the phone to Ford and Multimatic and let them know you "feel" the car would be a better product if they told everyone, "Hey don't mind our car out here...running mid to late pack and not for points or championship or anything. We're just feeling the car out and trying to develop it, while we're banging fenders. Cause ya know, we sit around a lot twiddling our thumbs and we really have nothing better to do than spend our time fixing damaged cars while at the same time sorting out the handling, braking, steering, suspension, etc. Just watch our pretty new Mustang go round the track while we sort it all out."

Ford has a huge investment in this Gen6 Mustang...it ain't going anywhere, until they are sure it's ready.

Feel?

No, there are two things that happen in traffic that don't during a flying lap.

First, your braking systems are taxed far beyond just cornering. A flying lap only has you braking in your traditional braking zones where in real racing, you are braking far more often. You can't get this type of feedback without traffic. This ultimately test the entire braking system far better than a solo lap.

Second, real world cooling. See, since your so smart, you should know that aerodynamics and engine cooing are limited by traffic. You know all the wind tunnel testing? Well, all that goes to hell once you put another vehicle in front of you blocking your airflow. But of course you probably already knew that. Even the best designs fall victim to bad air in traffic.

Another advantage is endurance in general. A flying lap is pretty much automatic after a few laps. The track never changes... However, in traffic, you are forced to slow, stop, accel and run the track off the line in some cases. This cannot be simulated or guessed at nor would a solo lap help in this area. This is 2 and a half hours of harsh conditions... On top of the solo runs. More track time is always better. I have never heard of continuous R&D without some type of real world trial. Have you?

Oh yeah, the z28 skipped all of this...

You won't need to contact Ford, they probably already know this very basic information. I am sure they would feel better about it too. Could be the main reason they are scratching and clawing for a 2015, so they can get a GT350R in there legally. Don't build a race car without racing it... The Boss had a couple of races in the 2010 season at least. Let the GT350 do some laps... But of course, when it's Ford, the rules are suddenly the Bible and must be followed EXACTLY as they are written. The z28 on the other hand...

Chevy made the OEM car, then Prat engineered the Z/28.R in CTSC, then Black Dog moves to a Z/28.R in SCCA. Should have been Pratt's Z/28.R, the OEM version using near GS compliant equipment, Black Dog builds the SCCA car based on the factory offering. IMSA and SCCA are backwards, IMSA requires an OEM offering based on the race car before the race cars first race. The SCCA requires that the car be in production and the race cars are based on the OEM car. I think it was set up that way just to be different but, it is actually working out for car makers.

 

[thePill]

I like how the original argument has been completely forgotten now...

Do any of you know truly what you were trying to prove?

How does any of this have to do with the z28 in Pro Racing anymore?

It doesn't matter what BMW does now, they will probably need to do something. They are already restricted so, I think they might hang their hat after this year. I haven't heard a peep about what BMW is going to come with. I believe it was IMSA that changed the homologation rule. Competing models need to be available to the public 30 days prior to Daytona. I haven't seen any pre-'13 Mustang's or pre-'14 Camaro's and all the other teams are current. This makes me think that this class is for current model year ONLY. Although, Ford is a little late in my opinion so BMW being late doesn't surprise me, especially if it's a new drivetrain. Yet, I haven't heard anything.

Are we going to nitpick my grammar and punctuation eventually? Nobody wants to discuss the power advantage the z28 has? No? Nothing about the equipment or the need for a reduced wheelbase? No? Wouldn't we wanna question WHY a shortened wheelbase is needed on a 5th Gen? Wheelbase:Track Ratio's still sound silly? All these professionals in here screaming for more tire, you would figure these experts would have figured it out. Lets shoot for an optimal wheelbase/track ratio! No? More tire?

 

[02gtnh]

Well you haven't proved the z28 has a shorten wheelbase, so how can we talk about it? Are you going to complain about the GT350 power advantage when it comes out? It will have more then the Z28.

 

[thePill]

Well you haven't proved the z28 has a shorten wheelbase, so how can we talk about it? Are you going to complain about the GT350 power advantage when it comes out? It will have more then the Z28.

No, but the ZL1 last year that Black Dog built WAS a 110.5 inch wheelbase. Not that any of that matters, isn't the Boss 302 limited to a cast iron 14 inch front rotor (355mm) while the z28 is allowed (Edit: The Boss is permitted to use a 380mm rotor, up from 355 last year).

1.) Another HP advantage (per SCCA PWC)

2.) Another race weight advantage (339xlbs)

3.) A pretty big equipment advantage (15.5 inch Carbon Ceramic rotors)

4.) What is the Boss 302S's tire size limits again? Because the z28 is permitted 305's all around. Unless the photos taken were just PR shots.

The Camaro had a shortened wheelbase in PWC since 2010? Wow!!!! What a load of sh!t... (Edit: 2012 was the ZL1's first year in PWC) It was this thing called a "Development Year". I know it sounds silly but it is a real thing.

I highly doubt the GT350 will be permitted to keep it's power advantage. It is a superior car in the class and actually doesn't belong there. But how is Ford going to answer a 500HP z28? With another Coyote? The GT350's Power to Weight ratio will be incredible for what it is AND, the wheelbase:track ratio is almost the best in the class now. I would need to look at the 997 and 370z. The new M4 had a track increrase and received heavy criticism from a lot of BMW fans. It wasn't really built with Motorsport in mind...

 

[Erik427]

Well you haven't proved the z28 has a shorten wheelbase, so how can we talk about it? Are you going to complain about the GT350 power advantage when it comes out? It will have more then the Z28.

I don't think Ford will have a power advantage. The ls7 that chevy uses is not the production version. The version they use has different heads and makes over 525hp. The production version drops exhaust valves just off idle. Chevy would not risk the production version in competition. Chevy should have never been allowed to use a non OEM motor. Just where is the parity?......:ford:

 

[thePill]

Here is the Camaro's history in PWC. They have been using a shortened wheelbase since 2012, they didn't race before that. Here is 2015 http://www.world-challenge.com/images/vts/Camaro-VTS-v22-2010-2012.pdf

2012 was the Camaro's PWC development year. As you can see, the WB is blank (similar to the z28 this year is TBD). That is because they are still determining if the z28 needs a shortened wheelbase to be competitive. It has a track increase so it is possible it doesn't.

http://www.world-challenge.com/images/vts/Camaro-2010--VTSv10--1.pdf

In 2013, the Camaro ZL1 needed a 110.5 inch wheelbase to be competitive. This is according to the 2013 document.

http://www.world-challenge.com/images/vts/Camaro-2010--VTSv17.pdf

In 2014, the Camaro continued to use a 110.5 inch wheelbase.

http://www.world-challenge.com/images/vts/Camaro-2010--VTSv20.pdf

I hope this is evidence enough...

I also hope this helps prove my "theory" of the 5th Gen needed a more optimal wheelbase/track ratio. This is painfully evident when race teams go to these lengths to accommodate poor geometry. That and a 500lbs weight reduction...

Edit: I think the Chassi and Body Misc. Sections are approved replacement, additional or alternative parts. You see all the approved panel replacements so, I think the 112.3 inch stock Camaro chassis while permitted, isn't the actual body Black Dog submitted for approval. A season of testing probably resulted in "Get a Better Wheelbase".

I have been saying that for a while now.

The need for a better WB:T ratio is bad... Still sound silly?

 

[thePill]

I don't think Ford will have a power advantage. The ls7 that chevy uses is not the production version. The version they use has different heads and makes over 525hp. The production version drops exhaust valves just off idle. Chevy would not risk the production version in competition. Chevy should have never been allowed to use a non OEM motor. Just where is the parity?......:ford:

SCCA PWC forces Chevy to supply completely stock LS7's to Black Dog. Stock cam, rods, pistons, heads. although, it hasn't been the force the ZL1 was.

As far as the spec sheet, the LS7 in PWC looks stock. But Chevy isn't really involved, they are there but not involved in the program at all except PR.

The Boss 302 is also stock... Far more stock than the Boss 302R1 in CTSC.

 

[thePill]

:lol:

2016 Corvette Z06 C7.R Edition

Isn't the "R" kind of R thing?

Limited to 500, just as the GT350R will likely be. This is the minimum production number for homologation.

BOWLING GREEN, Ky. – Chevrolet today introduced the 2016 Corvette Z06 C7.R Edition – a road-going, track-capable homage to the Corvette Racing C7.R racecars. It’s offered in Corvette Racing’s signature yellow livery – or black – with coordinated exterior and interior accents.

Only 500 examples of the C7.R Edition will be built and all will include the Z07 Performance Package with carbon ceramic brakes, as well as a specially serialized vehicle identification number. They go on sale later this year.

“Corvette Racing’s legacy and technology were significant influences on the development of the Corvette Z06 and the new C7.R Edition honors the direct link between the racecar and the production model,” said Harlan Charles, Corvette product and marketing manager. “It also advances Chevrolet’s plan to offer special-edition models that offer a unique, personal ownership experiences, which become important parts of Corvette’s legacy.”

Here is a complete list of content and unique features for the 2016 Corvette Z06 C7.R Edition:

Offered on coupe and convertible models with 3LZ trim
Available in Corvette Racing Yellow Tintcoat (new for 2016) or Black exterior colors
C7.R Edition graphics package
Z07 Performance Package with Brembo carbon ceramic brakes and Michelin PS Cup 2 tires
Yellow brake calipers
Black wheels with yellow accent strip and Corvette Racing-logo center caps
Visible carbon fiber ground effects package
New visible carbon fiber hood section
Grilles and vents finished in Spectra Gray Metallic
Jet Black leather interior with sueded microfiber accents on the instrument panel and doors
Sueded microfiber-trimmed Competition Sport Seat, steering wheel and shifter
Yellow contrast stitching throughout the interior
Carbon fiber interior trim package (high-gloss)
Corvette Racing sill plates
Numbered C7.R Edition interior plaque showing the build number, starting with VIN 700001
Special indoor car cover with C7.R graphics.
The Z07 Performance Package includes Brembo carbon ceramic-matrix brake rotors that improve braking performance and contribute to greater handling through reduced un-sprung weight. The Z07 package also includes adjustable front and rear aero components for unprecedented aerodynamic downforce and Michelin Pilot Super Sport Cup 2 tires for enhanced grip.

“The Z07 Performance Package enhances overall performance to make the Corvette Z06 one of the most track-capable cars you can buy off the dealership floor and still drive it to work every day,” said Charles.

“Combined with the 650-horsepower supercharged LT4 engine, true aerodynamic downforce and performance technologies such as Magnetic Ride Control, Performance Traction Management and an electronic limited slip differential, the Corvette Z06 C7.R Edition offers capability matched only by an elite fraternity of the world’s supercars and special-edition exclusivity that is sure to make it an instant collector’s item.”

Additional updates for the 2016 Corvette Z06 include a new, available front curb view parking camera, power-cinching hatch/trunk latch, new available design packages and more. Complete details are available here.

This brings me to another point. Do you see how Chevy is using Racing and the availability of Chevy built, Race sanctioned editions? The $$$ made in the Motorsport Program, as in Profit, yes they make money selling race cars, is funneled back into the overall Corvette profit. It augments sales profit, it lowers the cost of technology, that technology eventually trickles down.

The Boss 302 Program... Perfect example. All the crashed out Boss 302R's, 302R1's, and the 3 Boss 302S's, replacement cars for model years... all of that $$$ helped bring the OEM MSRP down. Ford gained a lot from the Boss Program, it was highly successful and was only dampened by restriction.

The GT350 Program has probably piggy-backed from the Boss profit. It is in a sense an extension of the current Ford Mustang Racing Program so, as the Boss's stock went up, that money was funneled into a future product in which they don't discuss.

The z28 has nothing... There is NO Team Chevy Z/28 Racing Program. You can't buy a competitive Camaro (except the COPO) from Chevy at all. Unfortunately, not only does this drive the cost of the race car up for private teams (GS.R cost $225,000, Boss 302R cost $125,00, Boss 302S was $89,000). This is an unnecessary burden for these teams when looming restrictions are ever present. A manufacturers development year (there's that silly concept again) entails data given to the organized body that imposes restrictions. Under Chevy's watch (and they should help fight battles), the car should be put through it's paces and restrictions should be imposed the following year. This means 3rd Party Teams don't need to get political but, as we seen with the Boss 302S drivers in PWC, sometimes they DO get political.

Not only that, just like the LT4 wasn't really planed out for the new Z06, the LS7 wasn't really planned out for the z28. At least in the terms of Motorsport. They had to know the LS7 would eventually be restricted to near fatal levels to be permitted to run. They were better off using a unique LS5.5 that is based on the LS7 and used in the Z06 in IMSA. Why not? It would have been f@cking kool!!! But it probably would have had a z28 getting pummeled in every class, maybe even worse than the 1LE. MSRP would have likely increased too...

If Chevy would have at least started a legitimate Z/28 Race Program, regardless of the LS7, it probably would have helped lower that $75,000 price tag on a 2 year run. It would have helped the teams too... However, there is a reason why this was avoided.

If they started in IMSA, the race car would need to be built first. After the race car is complete after it's development season, an OEM version would need to be based on the Z/28.R. If that was the case, the z28 would have never come with 305's or CCB's or probably an LS7. After the results were in, Chevy would have probably turned their nose up to a 65mm restriction. That may even increase before its all over.

All this has done is create additional financial and restrictive stressors on these 3rd Party Teams. The cost to replace these Z/28.R's surely eclipse the GS.R and ZL1 GTS from before... and for the most part, restrictions on the LS3 were either minimal in the SCCA or removed in Grand Am/IMSA.

What Ford has accomplished here is offering packages to conform to a wide variety of classes now. If IMSA were still on the Factory Spec stuff, I have a feeling the Base GT350's equipment would be better suited for the class. While the GT350R's Track Pack/R Package equipment would be permitted under the new PWC Rules this year.

1.) Develop in Racing

2.) Offer Staged Performance Options for OEM

3.) Don't force Standard Tech that gets you DQ'd

 

[02gtnh]

Here is the Camaro's history in PWC. They have been using a shortened wheelbase since 2012, they didn't race before that. Here is 2015 http://www.world-challenge.com/images/vts/Camaro-VTS-v22-2010-2012.pdf



The need for a better WB:T ratio is bad... Still sound silly?

Would not changing the WB take considerable modifications to the car?

 

[thePill]

Would not changing the WB take considerable modifications to the car?

I am still trying to gather how this was done. You can change the rear suspension geometry but that is about all they can do. This was also done on the GT3 Mustang if I remember correctly but only slightly. Just the addition of the IRS on an S197 could possibly change that measurement.

As soon as I find out how they did it, I will put it up here.

Edit: Ah yes, the VDA GT3 Mustang had a 2706mm Wheelbase OR 106 and 17/32nds. Around 106.6 I'd guess so...

Black Dog actually uses their own rear suspension and likely a whole new IRS cradle.

Front & Rear Toe Links are allowed to be fabricated
using Rod Ends

Blackdog Speed Shop Rear Suspension Parts.
Adjustable Front & Rear Toe Links, Rear Trailing
Arms,

See here?

Front & Rear Toe Links are allowed to be fabricated using Rod Ends

Alternate Rear Shock Mount allowed subject to approval and must meet photo description on file.

Allow use of Blackdog Speed Shop Rear Suspension Parts.

Adjustable Front & Rear Toe Links, Rear Trailing Arms,

Camaro Solid Sub-Frame Mounts. Blackdog Part Numbers to Follow.

Allow reduced height solid rear Sub Frame Mounts

OEM Electric Power Steering Rack [part #]

Reduced height of Sub Frame mounts or, as I called it, the IRS cradle.

 

[02gtnh]

But it would need fender and body modifications also. Just can't see all this being done.

 

[thePill]

But it would need fender and body modifications also. Just can't see all this being done.

You really can't see it done unless the two are pulled up beside each other. A custom 1/4 panel isn't difficult, no more work goes into a wide body kit that is welded onto the sail panel.

We just don't notice it...

110.5 inches is a significant wheelbase in Camaro history. Anyone know which Camaro used it?

Hint: It's RARE...

 

[02gtnh]

Your talking about a whole new irs rear end, modified pivot points, shortened drive shaft, fender and wheel well modifications. Then it would need some serious r&d to make sure it works good and is balanced with the front suspension. You would think if this was done there would be some article about how it made the Camaro handle better then stock.

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