GT350 vs. Z/28

[lil=john]

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[Erik427]

From what I understand. The ls7 is allowed different cylinder heads to "fix" the valvetrain issues. Does anybody know if there is a difference in airflow between the two?

 

[Big reg]

From what I understand. The ls7 is allowed different cylinder heads to "fix" the valvetrain issues. Does anybody know if there is a difference in airflow between the two?

The "fix" is a new set of valve guides. The exhaust valve guide wears prematurely on some cars causing the exhaust valve to possibly break. Changing guide materials is all anyone "fixing" the issue does.

Where was the info of a head fix on race cars and shortened wheelbase obtained from?

 

[Erik427]

The "fix" is a new set of valve guides. The exhaust valve guide wears prematurely on some cars causing the exhaust valve to possibly break. Changing guide materials is all anyone "fixing" the issue does.

Where was the info of a head fix on race cars and shortened wheelbase obtained from?

That fix is on production vehicles only from what I've heard.

 

[thePill]

He's missing the point...

The LS7 has a power advantage. Not rocket science, a larger displacement usually makes more power. Chevy needed more power because on handling alone, it didn't do well with a 6.2.

Even if the Boss and M3 had ZERO restrictions, parasitic losses on a 460hp engine would be around 400hp. I'm not sure why he doesn't understand that. Desperately trying to pull this argument together when there is none.

Chevy needed an LS7. The series (both GS and GTS) cater to the vehicle because it is indeed at a disadvantage without power or special equipment (see OEM).

If IMSA and SCCA say those classes max out at 405 and 400, I'm kinda obliged to believe them. Especially since the Boss 302 falls within this "range" easily. All the cars in the class have a distinct power disadvantage, get over it, they need it to be worth a shit.

3rd Party meaning a 3rd Party built the car. You can buy a Boss 302R and S directly from Ford. Ford is NOT 3rd party.

So now you have no idea what a Boss 302 makes. Stock, it makes between 370-390hp on average. A tune and exhaust is hold put a Boss 302 unrestricted, that's becauseca Boss 302S in PWC makes about 400rwhp SO, I would say the R and S are close.

Just admit it, Chevy needed power because it couldn't do it on handling.

The "fix" is a new set of valve guides. The exhaust valve guide wears prematurely on some cars causing the exhaust valve to possibly break. Changing guide materials is all anyone "fixing" the issue does.

Where was the info of a head fix on race cars and shortened wheelbase obtained from?

The shortened wheelbase info is from PWC Vehicle Technical Specification PDF. The ZL1 needed a reduced wheelbase to be competitive, WB was always a concern on the 5th Gen. The new z28 has an increased track but I believe it still uses an altered WB due to no information being provided. Black Dog builds the Camaro's themselves. Not really what I'm interested in.

I've said this numerous times: thePill is wrong most of the time when it comes to rules, his understanding of physics, his analysis (due to inexperience and inability), and most of which he posts is exaggerated, twisted, and complete nonsense. Take his posts for entertainment value and with a grain of salt because he's been proven time and time again that he's wrong and his tactics are really getting old by twisting others words around, straight up lying, and conveniently forgetting information just for the sake of his blind hatred for GM.

It's no lie, the classes have output limits, always have.

It's no lie the z28 needed major changes to be competitive.

It's no lie the z28 needed major rule changes to be competitive.

It's no lie that the z28 is done by 3rd Parties.

It's no lie that the z28 has major equipment advantages.

It's no lie they were permitted a 500lbs weight reduction.

It's no lie the z28 enjoys a hefty output advantage.


These are the issues...

 

[Stuntman]

Even if the Boss and M3 had ZERO restrictions, parasitic losses on a 460hp engine would be around 400hp. I'm not sure why he doesn't understand that. Desperately trying to pull this argument together when there is none.

So now you have no idea what a Boss 302 makes. Stock, it makes between 370-390hp on average. A tune and exhaust is hold put a Boss 302 unrestricted, that's becauseca Boss 302S in PWC makes about 400rwhp SO, I would say the R and S are close.

The 302R DOES NOT have a restrictor. :frusty:

It boggles my mind that you don't understand that stock Boss street cars are making 395-405whp stock. In a quick search I have seen some cars making 'lower' 370-390whp. Either way, you are pretty clueless if you think removing the cats does not makes difference. You can easily search the difference with a cat-delete on a Boss or GT 5.0 its pretty substantial. Then a tuned exhaust and an ECU tune for 100-octane; a street car can easily make well over the stock 395-405whp.

It's called common sense; which you continue to demonstrate that you lack.


Boss - Tuned with Cat-delete: 423whp
svtperformance .com/forums/showthread.php?877788-BOSS-302-tuned-by-AED

Boss - STOCK: 395whp (will make more with cat delete and tune)
svtperformance .com/forums/showthread.php?976417-2013-Boss-302-Stock-Dyno

Boss - STOCK: 394whp TUNED: 433whp (will make more with cat delete)
boss302forum .com/topic/15781-mods-claims-vs-actuals-on-dynos/

3rd Party meaning a 3rd Party built the car. You can buy a Boss 302R and S directly from Ford. Ford is NOT 3rd party.

Yes, you can buy the 302R from Ford; but it's well documented that Multimatic assembles and builds the cars for ford. I don't recall Z/28.R's having a Pratt&Miller billsheet. I'm pretty sure the check goes to GM when buying one; so again - no difference.

The shortened wheelbase info is from PWC Vehicle Technical Specification PDF. The ZL1 needed a reduced wheelbase to be competitive, WB was always a concern on the 5th Gen. The new z28 has an increased track but I believe it still uses an altered WB due to no information being provided. Black Dog builds the Camaro's themselves. Not really what I'm interested in.

Everything you say is nonsense until you post sources :headbonk:

As found in post #2307:

It's no lie the z28 needed major changes to be competitive.

Its "major" changes are carbon doors, hood, and trunk. Which technically aren't needed when it's by far the heaviest car in the field.

It's no lie that the z28 is done by 3rd Parties

So is the Boss and every car in the series. :frusty:

It's no lie that the z28 has major equipment advantages.

I agree, big engine, great chassis (although, probably not an 'advantage', just pretty good), and GREAT aero.

It's no lie they were permitted a 500lbs weight reduction.

Actually it is a lie. They came into the series at 3,300lbs, similar to the M3 and Boss; but they were too fast and needed a restrictor and weight to slow them down.



Your blatant lack of common sense, lack of sources and proof, and outright LIES baffles me how anyone could believe a word you say.

 

[thePill]

The 302R DOES NOT have a restrictor. :frusty:

It boggles my mind that you don't understand that stock Boss street cars are making 395-405whp stock. In a quick search I have seen some cars making 'lower' 370-390whp. Either way, you are pretty clueless if you think removing the cats does not makes difference. You can easily search the difference with a cat-delete on a Boss or GT 5.0 its pretty substantial. Then a tuned exhaust and an ECU tune for 100-octane; a street car can easily make well over the stock 395-405whp.

It's called common sense; which you continue to demonstrate that you lack.


Boss - Tuned with Cat-delete: 423whp
svtperformance .com /forums/showthread.php?877788-BOSS-302-tuned-by-AED

Boss - STOCK: 395whp (will make more with cat delete and tune)
svtperformance .com /forums/showthread.php?976417-2013-Boss-302-Stock-Dyno

Boss - STOCK: 394whp TUNED: 433whp (will make more with cat delete)
boss302forum .com /topic/15781-mods-claims-vs-actuals-on-dynos/



Yes, you can buy the 302R from Ford; but it's well documented that Multimatic assembles and builds the cars for ford. I don't recall Z/28.R's having a Pratt&Miller billsheet. I'm pretty sure the check goes to GM when buying one; so again - no difference.


Everything you say is nonsense until you post sources :headbonk:

As found in post #2307:


Its "major" changes are carbon doors, hood, and trunk. Which technically aren't needed when it's by far the heaviest car in the field.


So is the Boss and every car in the series. :frusty:


I agree, big engine, great chassis (although, probably not an 'advantage', just pretty good), and GREAT aero.


Actually it is a lie. They came into the series at 3,300lbs, similar to the M3 and Boss; but they were too fast and needed a restrictor and weight to slow them down.



Your blatant lack of common sense, lack of sources and proof, and outright LIES baffles me how anyone could believe a word you say.

The Boss 302R and 302S no longer have a restricter, so, as of NOW, it should produce no more than 405RWHP per IMSA. FACT... Both GS and GTS are limited to 405 and 400RWHP per both organizations rules. I provided a direct link.

The OEM Boss 302 typically makes between 370 and 390RWHP, Google images is your friend.

Ford provides the Boss 302R and 302S to the customer as a complete package. Most times delivered right to the dealer. The issue is, homologation. I know you have no idea what that means because the Camaro doesn't need to follow it. Ford engineered the Boss 302 in Grand Am. The OEM Boss we get is a dumbed down version of the actual race car. The OEM car is required to be as close as possible to the race version as possible. So, major technologies are usually banned and it comes down to mechanical engineering, geometry, tires and losing weight where you can. Chevy didn't do any of that... If they wanted to compete with the Boss they should have competed head on like the Mustang and M3 did. Ford had a performance ceiling in that class and they built to that ceiling in order to compete with the M3. We got a great car for a pretty price and all that profit augmented the Boss program (and still does to this day). This profit in turn was responsible for the GT350 Program that replaces it. This is why Ford has a semi-exotic Mustang and some one-off technologies now... The race program.

Chevy built a car for "A class that doesn't exist" (per Motor Trend) and decided that the z28 was a direct competitor to the Boss. It was not... They had NO performance ceiling and pretty much took pot shots at vehicles that rightfully classed in Motorsport. Like a GT car suddenly being allowed to run GS, because THAT IS EXACTLY WHATS HAPPENING. They celebrate a victory against vehicles in this class but did nothing to really earn it. Now Ford has a similar monster built and this is where the class is heading.. to extinction and a merger with GT.

The z28 is allowed a HUGE weight loss program to be competitive. Faaaaaaar more than any other vehicle in the class. 500lbs initially, then 400lbs a little later in the year. The z28 was initially allowed a 3300lbs weight? That is nearly 600lbs removed... Do you actually think Carbon "Doors, Hood and Trunck" are responsible for this 600lbs weight loss? Are you aware the kind of changes a z28 needs to under go in order to reach 3300lbs? Especially when it's already a "Lightweight z28" to begin with? Oh that's right, it isn't a z28 to begin with, it's a 5th Gen BIW with an LS7 crate engine prepped by Pratt and Miller. Chevy at least provided the BIW.

I provided a link to the shortened 110.5 inch wheelbase PWC Camaro. I'm not sure the new z28 is shortened yet but since the wheelbase is either blank or TBD, I'd say it's the same. Black Dog builds the PWC Camaro at their shop... Ford builds and provides the Boss 302S.


I think you just choose to ignore this because it makes you feel better about the z28. The car doesn't belong in GS, maybe PWC but GS no...

The original Boss 302R (now Boss 302R1) was a spitting image of the OEM base Boss 302. The whole 2011 season the cars were sooooooooo close to OEM. Every time a Frankenstein'd piece of sh!t is permitted in the class, everything swings in that direction. It is out of the manufacturers hands... However, the z28 (and KIA elsewhere) is the sole reason Factory Racing never works.

I can tell when I upset someone, they tend to try and get personal. Have I wounded you?

 

[Erik427]

Does the ls7 have the same cylinder head change as the COPO Camaro program? If so, what are the flow numbers vs stock heads?

 

[Erik427]

Last time I checked, Ford builds the Boss. The Z28 is in question. Speaking in terms of racing.

 

[thePill]

Does the ls7 have the same cylinder head change as the COPO Camaro program? If so, what are the flow numbers vs stock heads?

Does GM's crate LS7 make more than the OEM's 505? I thought I remembered 525hp somewhere. This is what the z28 uses in Conti if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Erik427]

Does GM's crate LS7 make more than the OEM's 505? I thought I remembered 525hp somewhere. This is what the z28 uses in Conti if I'm not mistaken.

That is the point I've been trying to make. That crate motor I do believe has the different cylinder heads. Being allowed to run non oem production heads is a major no no! Will the Camaro use the lt series next year? Or will there be another waiver?

 

[thePill]

That is the point I've been trying to make. That crate motor I do believe has the different cylinder heads. Being allowed to run non oem production heads is a major no no! Will the Camaro use the lt series next year? Or will there be another waiver?

Another waiver, the 6th Gen. probably isn't ready yet. I have a strange feeling that the PWC cars were using a 110.5 inch test bed for a future Camaro car.

They also use and entire Pratt/Miller suspension too (as did the Riley GS.R use Riley suspension).

The 600lbs weight reduction is comical, if your race car needs to lose 600lbs, it's wasn't a race car to begin with.

 

[Stuntman]

Its quite sad how delusional and wrong you are Pill:

"The differences between the S and R race cars are not huge and are driven by the rules in their respective racing classes. Both cars are built for Ford Racing from bodies in white—the 302S by Watson Engineering in Taylor, Michigan, and the 302R primarily by Multimatic in Markham, Ontario, Canada. Both racing Bosses receive rollcages and production Boss engines (with unique Ford Racing oil pans), Ford Racing wiring harnesses, and computer with custom calibration for race fuel."
http://www.mustangandfords.com/car-reviews/m5lp-1204-ford-mustang-boss-302-vs-302s/

"...the Multimatic Motorsports division can be contracted for engineering and race team management. They currently produce the Boss 302R racecar in the Continental Tire SportsCar Challenge, worked on the FR500C, and their Multimatic Motorsports Lola B2K/40 won its class at the 24 Hours of Le Mans in 2000.
The first models will roll off the line"
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/02/16/ford-canada-multimatic-gt-production/

"2010 - Tasked by Ford Racing to engineer and build the new Mustang Boss 302R race car. "
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimatic_Motorsports

FYI - while camaros were allowed a 3,300lb minimum weight, they never got them down to that weight. Now at 3,575lbs, the carbon doors and hood and trunk really aren't necessary.

 

[Big reg]

Does GM's crate LS7 make more than the OEM's 505? I thought I remembered 525hp somewhere. This is what the z28 uses in Conti if I'm not mistaken.

http://www.karlperformanceparts.com...zxaf9nlnZGO_mRlgtngz6YWE_iuIjC0LsGRoCPnfw_wcB

 

[thePill]

Its quite sad how delusional and wrong you are Pill:

"The differences between the S and R race cars are not huge and are driven by the rules in their respective racing classes. Both cars are built for Ford Racing from bodies in white—the 302S by Watson Engineering in Taylor, Michigan, and the 302R primarily by Multimatic in Markham, Ontario, Canada. Both racing Bosses receive rollcages and production Boss engines (with unique Ford Racing oil pans), Ford Racing wiring harnesses, and computer with custom calibration for race fuel."
http://www.mustangandfords.com/car-reviews/m5lp-1204-ford-mustang-boss-302-vs-302s/

"...the Multimatic Motorsports division can be contracted for engineering and race team management. They currently produce the Boss 302R racecar in the Continental Tire SportsCar Challenge, worked on the FR500C, and their Multimatic Motorsports Lola B2K/40 won its class at the 24 Hours of Le Mans in 2000.
The first models will roll off the line"
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/02/16/ford-canada-multimatic-gt-production/

"2010 - Tasked by Ford Racing to engineer and build the new Mustang Boss 302R race car. "
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimatic_Motorsports

..and the OEM Boss was based on that. That is homologation... It is titled and sold as the Boss 302 and sent to your dealer.

Ford task them with assembly and, as was stated in the video, Multimatic drove the Boss during the 2010 season. That is HOW FORD engineered the car. In racing... using a race team (and they are doing this again).

Multimatic did just sit down and start whipping together a car. Your a fool... Ford built the Boss using REAL RACING RESOURCES.

Chevy sends the BIW to Pratt or Riley and they do as they please to fit the rulebook, that ever changes to support them.

It is pathetic...

Shouldn't the OEM z28 have been limited to the class max RWHP? It wouldn't have an LS7 then... Wheres the mighty 1LE? Oh, eaten by GT's...

There is a whole Boss 302 Program video to watch and see how the Boss was engineered. You act like Multimatic did what they wanted like Crawford in GT, they didn't. Ford was THE authority...

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